Nobody ever lost because they had too much ammo.
I used to shoot a frag round in my 45 and it was mean. Unfortunately it has been discontinued.

You really have no clue the difficulties that could be caused by folks with that attitude. Sorry, but you won't hear it from our Pastor. He is not going to drop whatever he is doing to handle a security incident, not to mention that with that kind of attitude, you will not get near our Pastor. If you are asked by anyone on our team to leave, you will go. It's up to you if you want to make it easy or hard. If you decide to make it difficult, you will be escorted by a deputy and charged with "remaining after forbidden". Learn the law and your legal rights.
D

CC I'm guessing you are a member of a rather large church.

Medium sized church I guess. Not sure what makes a small, medium, or large church. I have trained churches that run 10,000 a weekend and churches that run 200 a weekend. We run 1000 a weekend.
D

Gotta link??

Like I need another holster:smokin::smokin: Im a freaking junky, need my smack

just like buying a new fishing pole yesterday:rolleyes: like I "needed" that:shaking:

[QUOTE=CajunChristian;767824]Medium sized church I guess. Not sure what makes a small, medium, or large church. I have trained churches that run 10,000 a weekend and churches that run 200 a weekend. We run 1000 a weekend.
Yeah that's a sizeable crowd to have to sort through and recognize people especially during a tactical situation. I can see your point about only having designated security members. I don't agree with being disarmed by anyone but I do see your point and it's a valid one. It's not like the little community churches around where I live. 30/40 members and everyone knows everyone. It's easy to pick out who doesn't belong.

Shawn, I have a LC9 if you want to look at it. Alien Gear holster. Holster is a little hot during the summer.

[quote=duckman1911;767826]It does get difficult to sift through that many faces. We also keep sex offender programs on our phones to cross reference.
D

This is my daily carry with crimson trace laser built in. love it

When you grab the stock the laser comes on automatic. I like this feature, no aiming. Honestly if you happen to be in a situation, there wont be much time to aim, point the red dot and shoot.

It happens faster then it took to read this sentence.
http://www.tombstonetactical.com/ima...12-1-large.jpg

[quote=duckman1911;767826]I can't stay out of this no more.
When I go to church it's15-20 people most all carry, and the preacher dose not make a dime, we a come to work days and bring whatever building supplies we need for the project and do it. Cc. I don't have a problem with your (mega church) or you, but as a man an christian o don't believe in them tactics!!! I know the law is the law, and respect that! Just have a problem with church paying for bids and hireing contractors for new projects, and paying for security!!! The members of the church should do all that without question, or having to get bids, or be apart of yalls elite security group) church is about God and knowing your nabers!!! Not money or who can carry or not carry!! You should know and been to every one of your members house and know there family,bar-b-que with them!!!

Let's just say a situation happened and you had to use (force) but but come to find out it was just a new person, that was not carring just needed to speak to the/a preacher for a min, and you and your team rush and throw him or her out and they kill themselves in the parking lot because you or your team found them a threat! How would you feel?? I would jump in front of a bullet/knife for any member of my family or and member of the church I go to when I have time to go, but know everyone one of them by name!!! Guess what I am trying to say is learn what gods about and know your nabers and fellow brothers and sisters. Not in a ( we don't get 1000-3500 thro the door we out of bis)
Just my 2 cents!!

[quote=CajunChristian;767831]Unrelated question. Does your church not allow sex offenders?

[quote=capt coonassty;767884]We absolutely welcome any felon for a second or third chance. BUT, we are Christians, not stupid! Our church has a children's' and youth side and on the opposite side of the building is the sanctuary. The problems we have had involved offenders not going into the sanctuary but trying to hang around the restrooms on the children's' side. We allow no adults on that side during service, except for parents picking up children.The times we have had problems is when adults with no children attempt to hang around the children's side. The 3 incidents we have had, all happened to be registered sex offenders. They are barred from our church. We don't have the time nor manpower to babysit a sex offender that still shows a proclivity towards children. Maybe Andy would feel different if it were his child in our nursery and we are throwing a sex offender out of the building????
And Andy, I have no clue what you are talking about, you make no sense. You talk as though I go to churches and charge them to provide security???? Please show me where I stated that. We are an all volunteer security team FOR OUR CHURCH, don't know where you're coming from. What you describe is a vigilante team, not a properly trained church security team.
D

That seems reasonable and responsible.

I have not read where CC posted anything stating he charged or earned money to protect his church or any other church. ...

Andy, you need to read this thread again.

Thought you said yall hire off duty officers at the door and yall were a volunteer group, witch you train other mega church's, understand if there's a man or woman hanging around the bathrooms to long and not waiting on there kid,, it would get get taken care of real fast cause we all know each, and families, New people come every Sunday and pry with the preacher.. let me just throw this out there there's100/-2000 members of your church how many of them do you know by name, even more dose your preacher know and know each and every one of them by name and know there day to day struggles?? I will bet not!!!!!!

How many bathrooms your church have?? How many on Sunday that walk in the doors do you know personaly or where they live/been invited to there birthday party ?,

My last post here, if yall don't trust your fellow church members to take care of what problems that can come up you might thank about going to a church where everyone knows everyone,and not need security!! And get back to family and community, not just how many people they can run throw the door!!

Don't know what Andy's problem is with what was said but it seems like he is against big churches. Just saying......

Obviously..... Go to the church where you feel comfortable whether big or small....

I really think you are completely missing the point of what CajunChristian and his guys do. Personally, I would also like to be able to carry while I'm in church, but I'd be extremely comfortable leaving my gun in my vehicle and attending services in a church that is protected by a team of people with way more training than me. Sounds like your issue is more about smaller churches vs a bigger church.

Ditto that. On a typical Sunday, we have 20-50 new folks at our church. When you talk about an attendance of 1000 people, it's difficult, if not impossible, to know everyone. Then throw the CEO crowd, Christmas, Easter Only, our attendance swells. Andy, we have NEVER hired any security. But I guess you want to be paid for your work but don't want to pay security folks??? We're just doing the best we can with what we have.
Danny

[QUOTE=How many bathrooms your church have?? How many on Sunday that walk in the doors do you know personaly or where they live/been invited to there birthday party ?,[/QUOTE]

Andy, our church has 4 bathrooms downstairs and 2 upstairs. You seem to have a problem with medium and large churches.
Just curious, what is your magic number. At what number would you limit your congregation to? Now it's you telling folks they can't come to YOUR church or it will grow too large. See how silly that sounds? I assure you, I have seen and dealt with that mentality for years. Years ago I left a church that was comprised of about 40 people. Average age was near 80. They didn't want new folks, so their church is dying. Could be totally dead now, I don't know.

Cajun and BJ, I completely agree with you guys. We have around 2,000 per Sunday (this includes children) and want everyone safe at all times. We pay 4officers and have a security team of volunteers that are trained and legal. Not only does our pastor encourage the security he participates in our training and range sessions. The reason for the paid officers is we want anyone entering the building to know that we have security. The trained CCL holders are very discrete and very few people know that we are armed. Not saying this is the best or right way to do it but its what works for us. Stay safe and train hard. Dog

Good for yall, I understand there's a threat every Sunday at yalls church's, as a man of the Lord in my church I don't have to worry about that!! Cause we all welcome new people and build every thing , not saying yall are any more less of a man or woman of God just different parts of the country, and different churches!!

We all Christine's just different ways of seeing church, & I am leaving it at that!!

Good!!

I understand the law completely. I all I stated was my feelings towards this type of thinking. I do my best to always follow the law. Its the attitude that you have towards anyone carrying a weapon other than you is unsafe. I'm sorry if I can't jump on your "I'm special band wagon". We should all have the right and that right should be respected. Your confusion in thinking that less people armed is safer than everyone having the right to protect themselves and others is troubling. Just a few posts back you were comparing yourself to a swat team. If that doesn't scream ego then I don't know what does. If there is a sign posted out front then I will not carry. I would expect no one else to carry either. I do not think that you or anyone else other than a licensed officer has more rights than I do. If your pastor gives you permission and not no one else he should be able to make that known. You have no right to tell anyone they cannot carry. Just my opinion that's all.

Not trying to throw gas on the fire but I get what Andy is saying. I don't attend a church but I have absolute respect for the house of God. Any person that goes into a house of God with intent to do harm has a special spot in hell resereved for them. It is however disturbing when some of our city churches own multiple city blocks and can afford to advertise at a five to one ratio over our local food bank. I know people that go to these churches and they are great people. I think it's just an atmosphere thing is what Andy was saying. Some like big churches with multiple buildings and some like small churches where everyone knows everyone and it's not just God's family you actually feel like family.

I also understand CC's point although I don't exactly agree with it. From a tactical standpoint it would be impossible to distinguish between church members and nonmembers in a bad situation. 1000 people trying to get out as fast as possible. Not knowing the lay out of the church having a security member at entrances and exits is good but if something bad happened and a team member was in trouble it may be near impossible to get to him/ her and help with a flood of scared people trying to escape. That is where armed church members could help. Could. There is no perfect plan. If there was you wouldn't be in a gunfight. I think there are times you need to stay low and try to be a good witness but if you are directly threatened you should be able to defend yourself and your family not be stuck waiting for security to wade through a 1000 people to come help you. Gun in hand or cop on the phone. What works faster? Again CC I'm not trying to disrespect you are your team just looking from both sides

But don't forget that it's the law. Unless you complete 8 hours per year tactical training and have the ok from the pastor the law says you cannot CC in a house of worship even if you have a CC permit. I totally agree that it's not a perfect plan and hope none of us ever have to go through a really bad situation.

You sir are correct. However oc is unregulated according to the state constitution. It is clear in the fact that only cc can be regulated. It can be overridden by property rights and I completely agree with that. You don't want me to carry that is your right but I also will never spend money with your business or church.
I do believe that 8hours a year training is laughable. Of course I think the cc requirements and a POST course is laughable also.

Property rights do trump CC laws, all you need is permission from the property owner/church leadership even without a permit. Same as you can carry in your own home however you wish, regardless of government issued documents. And I hate to say it, concealed means concealed. And one final comment, tactical training is not defined anywhere, so does 8 hours of range time a year count? I have a feeling this will never be a primary charge EVER.

I agree with you about the 8 hours and the CC requirements. This amount of training doesn't come close to preparing one for a situation like a shooting in a church.

;)

There are a few here that think I'm some 5'3" cocky guy strutting around with my 45 looking for a fight. I have strong stances I understand that. I have also been fortunate enough to train under some very great people. One was swat leader and head marksman for APD one was SRT team leader for Fort Polk and one was free lance edged weapons trainer for various departments. I agree with both sides of this issue. There is and never will be a perfect plan. Not be in a gun fight is the only perfect plan.

If I was planning to be in a gunfight I would NOT rely on my concealed carry pistol.

I actually plan to never be in a gun fight, but if one is brought to me I do carry a pistol everywhere I go.

I believe it was Jeff Cooper that said a handgun is only to fight your way back to your rifle.
You will never carry a handgun and have enough gun.

HAHA the only gun I have ever sold was a Desert Eagle .50 too much hand gun!! too much $$ to be wrapped up in a gun I didn't like to shot :rotfl::rotfl:

That's an expensive piece of iron to feed. Never was a DE fan. Yeah they look cool but don't handle well. IMO. Im not recoil sensitive the gun just feels like a heavy 2x4 to me.my buddy has a 480 ruger and that is a sweet piece. Even with 350grn horady xtp's it's a great gun. Obviously not a cc gun. Next toy will be a G20 10mm.

My buddy loves his DE'sAttachment 92960
But he doesn't like to shoot them
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

Manz how many rap cd's u buddy gotz?

Lol! Not into rap but he is definitely into firearms.

I tried to shoot this .50 cal one handed.......ONCE
I did manage to keep it under control, but I never did that again.:rotfl:

You guys are absolutely correct, there is no perfect plan. BUT, in today's world, you had better have some kind of a plan. When giving a presentation to a church, that is the first issue we discuss "due diligence". Churches can no longer keep their heads in the sand and say "it will never happen here". You want to see just how bad it really is, google "church shootings" or "church violence", you will be amazed. You will find thousands of incidents that never made the news.
OUR TEAMS GOAL IS TO DEESCALATE A SITUATION,NOT ESCALATE ONE.

I am not saying our team is better or worse than anyone else, I'm saying our team knows every inch of our facility and trains quarterly, in that facility. We do an unorthodox type qualifying every 3 months. And I assure you, it's not standing there shooting a paper target. If you fail the qualifying, you are weaponless for 3 months in church. Most of you really have no idea what a good Security Team entails. It's not just being able to hit a target and knowing the building. We send our team all over the US training with different tactical schools. Our Pastor is CC qualified and trains with us every 3 months. There is more for a Pastor to do defensively than simply carrying a pistol. We have signals set up should someone jump the stage and take anyone hostage. We train with the Worship Team, Greeters, Ushers, Child caregivers, Church Staff. I didn't just wake up one morning and decide to start training security teams.
And yes, everyone has their opinion as to what to do if one of my guys approaches you. Great, everyone should have an opinion, might be contrary to what the law says, but, everyone should have an opinion. I personally would not attend a church that I could not CC in. Again, I would not break the law to attend church with a gun. I also would not challenge any security team about carrying in THEIR FACILITY, you can't win. In any facility, church, store, any private property, if you are approached by a security team member and asked to disarm, legally, you MUST do so or leave.
A CHURCH IS PRIVATE PROPERTY! YOU ARE A VISITOR!
EVERY MEMBER OF OUR SECURITY TEAM, MALE AND FEMALE, HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ASK YOU TO DISARM OR LEAVE. EVERY MEMBER OF OUR SECURITY TEAM HAS THE AUTHORITY TO HAVE YOU ARRESTED FOR REMAINING AFTER FORBIDDEN.
We're not asking you to like those facts, you will respect those facts in our facility.
And no, we do not walk around with our hands on our weapons looking to start trouble. Most of you could identify our team, the general public cannot.
d

So now I need to pick out a new pistol and a new church since we have approximately 200-400 people at any given mass. This just got confusing. I apologize for anyone that is offended by my humor, well not really. I do like the idea of a well trained security team. After catching up on the last few pages, for those complaining about not being able to carry in a church, how about joining the team and protecting not only your at home family but your church family as well. 8 hours of yearly training, CC, and participate with the team and boom you are now carrying like you wanted. Maybe I'm missing something here though. Like Duckman said, don't like the law/rules of the church, don't go it's that easy.

You're right Shawn. Don't go or work from the inside changing the rules. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Don't like the rules, become part of the team, but, remember, our team trains much more than 8 hours yearly. So you might want to check into their training schedule before joining. We have mandatory qualifying every 3 months. Most of our training sessions are mandatory. It is either your ministry or it isn't. We don't accept "I don't have time to train", if it is your ministry, you will arrange your priorities to fit. If you join simply to carry a gun, it's probably is not your ministry. Everyone has a God given talent. If protecting the flock is not yours, don't join, you will be miserable. A security team is not an afterthought. Join for the right reasons.
D

A lot of people with a ccp would have a snowballs chance in hell of passing a tactical qualification course. No joke I saw a woman who had never fired a weapon in her life pass the state required course. Some instuctions from the RO on how her weapon functioned and sight alignment and she was able to pass. It wasn't pretty but she passed. Kind of scarey

Couldn't agree more, some people I know with a CCP I wouldn't trust with a super soaker 2000. More the reason why a well organized security team would not want members to carry in church.

Agreed. I think there have been many valid points presented for both sides of the issue. Pray it never comes to that for anyone but unfortunately we don't get to choose when a fight is coming. If we could there would not be a fight.

No doubt, it's really a shame to think of where you have to worry about your family or your own safety when going in public now days.

My 13 yr old son is safer and a better shot then most CC. Why? because I started training him at 8yrs old. He will unfortunately grow up in an era that will require him to protect his self and his family daily.