There was no clear amount of time that it would survive in the info I researched . Here is the info I had found a few yrs ago .

Salinity:
Ruppia maritima has been found in water ranging from fresh to 32 ppt salinity, but is generally found in waters of 25.0 ppt or less (Phillips 1960).
In vitro rhizome growth and rooting of Ruppia maritima occurred at various salinities using artificial seawater. Rhizome production was most rapid at 0 & 5 ppt as opposed to 10, 15 and 20 ppt salinity. In vitro root production, although requiring an external carbon source, was greatest at 5 and 10 ppt salinity. This study also showed that ex vitro plantings were very successful suggesting that Ruppia maritima would be a good candidate for propagation through in vitro culture (Bird et al. 1993).
When Ruppia maritima from Redfish Bay, Texas, was transferred to outdoor ponds and controlled growth rooms where salinity was artificially increased, in the latter environment, growth continued until 70 ppt salinity in controlled growth rooms. In this same environment, R. maritima tolerated a salinity of 74 ppt, for a brief period.

Im simply stating facts about the freezes that occurred in those yrs . Both times it was in January ,so yes you are correct about it not happening until after November possibly .If it was to happen again. .

Im a firm believer that the good Lord knows whats best for his creation ,and Man should let things be sometimes instead of overthinking and overeacting . He created tides and natural drains for a reason.

Appreciate the invite. Glad I didn't go though cuz I heard ya'll all got out shot by the little man.

Understood.

I agree with almost everything you said, but the wiers are there to mitigate for the building of the ship channel. The ship channel created a direct route (north/south) for saltwater to come in and stay longer than the good Lord intended. Man did that, but without the ship channel what is Lake Charles? Its entire industry relies on that ship channel. Wiers were put there to mitigate for that rise in salinity that WILL kill brackish marsh.

If there was no ship channel there would not be a need for wiers. Its the same with the oil/gas canals, they provide direct routes for saltwater intrusion and inevitably erosion WILL happen. It can be seen on any aerial photo of coastal Louisiana (Wax Lake not included)

My lord W, really?:shaking: No marsh erosion problems on west side? Haven't we gone through all this? Are you blind, come on man I can not believe you really said that.




as far as an 'off year' for fishing/shrimping, I have seen that from reports all over the state and its not because of a wier. Shrimping season has been much later than usual all over the state. You can see this just by asking the people who sell live shrimp from Hopedale, Grand Isle, and even Calcasieu Point. Its everywhere.

When people have a bad day fishing in Hopedale its because of freshwater diversions, Grand Isle is BP fault, Calcasieu Lake is the wiers or 15 trout limit, pick one



What 'east side' marshes are you talking about? East Louisiana or East Big Lake? Because there are definitely some manmade structures on the East side of Louisiana

Effects of saltwater
 

...

This is erosion W
 

Your land is eroding away right before your eyes

2013

http://binged.it/15AjHT7

couldn't figure out how to post the picture of the map so here is the link

How long has the ship channel been there? How long did the marsh survive before the levee and weirs were put there?

Also have to remember that weirs or no weirs, rita and ike covered the entire marsh in saltwater, which will also kill marsh, regardless of weirs.

So pictures before and after rita cannot be compared fairly. Also, aerial photos look a whole lot different in summer time and winter

Boy that marsh looks all gone


Lmao

Duckbutt post deceiving maps

Duck Butt

Post Pick from Summer Marsh 1996 then Dead winter 2005 after hurricane


Makes him feel better about his save the grass job

:shaking: If you truly believe that the marshes east and west of Calcasieu Lake are NOT disappearing then I really can not help and nor can anyone else. You really really need to get out from whatever rock it is you are under


The aerials are actual photographs, nothing is made up about them. What you are looking for is OPEN water. Look at the change in open water - water that was once LAND. Lord have mercy!

Here is a map that MG posted up for you. We have had this conversation already. The red is where land once was.

Good question, do the owners of the lake possibly know these answers? Also waiting on W's adveradage depth of his marsh.

The Ms River was brought under control throughout the mid 1800's but we did not begin to see exponential growth of negative impacts until nearly 100 years later.

Same pictures as last time we had this talk. If they are right I have to swim to my house.

That said yes ike and reida did a bad number on the marsh in sw la.!! See it first hand.

But why on the west side if BL. ( way more lose then the east side of BL. It is finely coming back and regrowing??

The 4 sets of wiers on that side have not been closed in 10 year's I know of. And none of the concrete/board wiers in the marsh ( you take out and put back for boat passage) even have the boards in them. And that marsh is starting to come back.
As far as the channel gos open all flood gates and dames and let it flood and wash sediment down and the marsh will rebuild way faster.

But know they stop/dame it up to protect people that chose to build on a river that floods!!!

Reida nocked down the levee on the east side of BL. For a reason??? What reason I don't know!!

Sorry for all the spelling erears in a tractor, feeding yalls families!!!

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We already figured that out as well. Pretty sure one of the mods said your house was not underwater, so no swimming for you:rotfl:


Marshes are typically organic soils (muck), sediment is needed to build the foundation. If you put sediment on top of a muck marsh its no good. The plants are what keep all that held together. When a freshwater, intermediate, or brackish marsh is exposed to saltwater for long periods of time the vegetation dies and the soil washes away because there are no roots to hold it altogether. Salt marsh would handle that fine, but thats not salt marsh. Salt marsh couldn't come in because there would be no soil left for it to establish. (thats a very very condensed version, much much more to it than that).

Take home lesson: saltwater bad for plants that are not adapted to saltwater, pour a bucket of saltwater in your garden and see what happens. Salts are used for defoliants in farming industry to defoliate plants (kill them) so they can harvest. Salt was also used in the ancient times when peoples? would defeat another peoples?. They would 'salt the earth' so that nothing would grow and they would have to move on to find other areas to farm to feed themselves

Nick

the east side Marsh adv about 1.5 to 2 ft of water

DuckButter

Give up!! you will not win this battle!!! Our marsh is healthy and does not need the weirs to stay closed off to keep it growing


right now they have 15ppt trapped behind the weirs and ship channel is pushing 17 to 19

so what is the big deal of keep closed???

Thank good ness, cause was there last week and was able to drive , seen the pics again and thought I was going to have to swim. All I mean them photos don't tell/show the hole truth. Wiers no wiers. It didn't help either way.in my mind.

:rotfl:

post 131 check it out, you are fine:)
http://www.saltycajun.com/forum/show...t=wiers&page=7

How long you thank it took to build that marsh???
How did two major storms, in 3 years plus all the crap from Cameron and the beech towns tear it up???

Got to give it some time to come back, that's just common since...

CCA and DU are co-conspiring to keep ducks on the private property back there, and to allow the private property owners back there to catch all the shrimp they want before anyone else gets a shot at it. DU will open the wiers whenever they get more people down here. Currently all the Lousiana DU people are in Missouri pouring corn out to shortstop ducks. After that, they have to construct the nets that are placed in the air to shortstop the ducks also. Once all that is done, they should be down here to open the wiers. Wait, I forgot, they will be up there til January heating the fields up there. So maybe at the end of January they will open the wiers, doesn't matter though because all the shrimp and crabs will be dead in October from this big freeze you keep talking bout:rotfl:


But seriously, are you just mad because the birds are not picking shrimp and you can't fish the birds:grinpimp:

You see that 'Pleistocene' wording at the top of the page? that was from millions of years ago and that is from glacial sediments in that time. The marsh below that is from organic materials that took a long time to build as well

It is very very hard to restore something back to the way it was. It is MUCH easier to try and save what you have than to restore it and that is the decisions that some people are going to have to make.

I would not buy waterfront property in the marsh in SW La or SE La, because its going away a football field PER HOUR:eek:

Agree, but how you going to get sediment or organic matter in them with all the leaves and dams. To get organic matter something has to die and then rebuild.

I am not pro or con wiers, but do believe man kind has over engineered flood plans, and leaves and dams.

:shaking::shaking::shaking:http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...r4z7o1_250.gif

Thats just it, you are not getting any new material into the system, we have screwed that all up with the levees. You can look at an aerial of the MS River and see sediment going straight out the channel into the Gulf. Some of that used to get distributed out. The heavy sediments on the bottom would build the land and the lighter silts on top and freshwater would replenish the marsh. All goes straight out to sea now

After the 1927? flood, the Corps put the levees went up and that was considered to be a good thing (they never wanted a flood like that to happen again). I have never heard that anyone was against this at the time, no one knew the ecological damage this would do, and it took many decades of cutting off the marshes before we started seeing the effects. Now we know (or at least I hope most of us know) that was a bad thing ecologically.

In the east you can point to the MS River levee as the 'culprit', around Big Lake you can point to the construction of the Ship Chanel. The MS River levee has probably saved thousands of lives from flooding but its also causing flooding to be worse so its Catch-22. And shipping in the Ship Channel is what makes the Lake Charles area, but it also allows saltwater in, which is good for trout but bad for brackish marsh, so which one is more important? Trout or marsh? The marsh is way more important to me as it is the basis of the food chain for not only fish but everything from birds, shrimp, crabs, etc.

It will take much longer than you think. You will not see it, I will not see nor will our children see it.

Why don't you ever bring up the saltwater barrier? Why was it installed?

Is it for some landowner behind it to save their wigeongrass?:grinpimp:

Why would anyone want to keep saltwater out?

You should get up a team of people and go protest the saltwater barrier and get them to destroy that thing. The people in Moss Bluff should be allowed to catch trout from their docks, and the saltwater barrier is keeping those people from their rights as fishermen!!!!!



Hope you got some money saved for an ice eater if you plan on duck hunting this year. No sense in fishing with the wiers being closed, and the marshes are going to freeze so gonna need to bust dat ice to kill ducks:smokin:

We do catch reds, trout, lady fish, and flounder off our docks. Infact it really doesn't keep saltwater out like most think.
But that's another subject there for another day.

They use to catch Tarpon in Lake Charles !!!

Again I agree. They didn't care what happened down river/stream. Back then. The marsh and offshore islands is what helps protect the south US.
They helped a few to put a bunch of people in danger?? And it was man made mess that the news never talks about!!!! My thought it leave it alown and let mother earth take care of the marsh. Cause it will rebuild one day long after we gone. Can't talk for the east side of the lake cause only been in that marsh twice, but the west side is just now coming back from the storm's and looking better every time I get in there.

It my not be the best hunting/fishing but that organic is building up and places where there was land grass is inch or so below the water. Trees growing again.(small but growing) it just takes time, and I would hate for something man did to interrupt the cycle.

Again I no environmentist, but that's the a holes that started this mess

In fact is a strong phrase....what are the facts?

A fact is not you catching saltwater species of fish, or that you taste saltwater when you swim at your dock.

yeah, the saltwater barrier design is another topic for another day!:grinpimp:

They used to catch BASS in Big Lake!!!!



There also used to be a healhty flock of whooping cranes here, and Canada geese would come down, and most of southwest La was prairie, and there was once a time in Louisiana where a fulvous or black-bellied whistling duck was a very rare occurence, and buffalo once roamed here, and a dime bag costed a dime:rotfl: whats your point?

my point is saltwater has been in Lake Charles way before you and I were even born!! its part of life when you live on the gulf coast!

If God did not want saltwater to intrude lakes and bays he would of make the gulf freshwater

you can not have a marsh that is less than 5 miles from the gulf of Mexico and expect it to stay fresh..

CMON man

Should be no need for it if the river was free flowing !!

Sounds to me like he catches saltwater fish at his dock??


Everyone is going to have their own opinion., as to why the marsh is leaving.

But know long after we are all gone it will rebuild it self.


It didn't take man to build it just man to f it up!! Thank about that?!!!


So why/can we thank we can fix it now?? Just cause of CPU.?? Don't forget back in the 20's-30's when this hole mess started they had the best/most advanced minds working on it!!!!

And now we see what's happening!

What makes any of y'all thank the "New plan" is any better then there's????


I say that cause even with CPU. They had a way better understanding of water and the environment then us cause that was there life!!!

At the time 'they' didn't know what they were doing was bad. All they knew is that they were keeping people out of danger (by building levees). Just like the oil/gas companies didn't know that their canals were going to create future problems. There are actual lawsuits out there right now to try and get money from oil companies for causing erosion when they dug canals way back when:eek:

Now we KNOW what saltwater does, and that erosion will follow, but 'fixing' it is the issue because all this is new, its never been done before. There are some tough decisions to be made. You can leave it alone and watch it all go away (but in the meanwhile enjoy the fishing/hunting while it lasts and future generations will look back and ask why nothing was done), or try and do something to mitigate the problem (let your kids and grandkids get to be able to enjoy it too). We have to have the ship channel and we are probably not going to see the MS River levee taken down in our lifetime. Sorry I am getting off topic:cheers:

Yep and man f that up to!!!! There still in tx.

It won't be long ya'll will be talking about duck hunting/fishing in tx with yalls POV.

Oh well stay down there till that happens in the next few year's!!!

I agree with that, but what makes us now that much smarter??? They where doing the best thing for there kids and grandkids !!!

???????

You are correct, saltwater would have come in naturally at times, but it was likely not the norm and that is exactly why the marshes are classified as brackish because the plants there evolved to take salinity spikes and dips and evolved to have floods come over them and hurricanes every so often and were adapted to frequent fire, but when you keep highly saline water on top of them for long periods of time, they can't tolerate that. There are different classifications of marsh. You can't magically make brackish marsh a salt marsh. Emergent plants can not move on their own, it can not control its environment where it is. Wherever it sprouts, it has to deal with whatever comes its way, and saltwater is not something that it would have had to deal with as much as it does now had the Ship Channel not been dug and give a direct route for saltwater.

One last question?? If you blame it all on the channel. Why does the marsh west side closer to the channel. coming back after the storms?? Better? Doing

Damn thats a tough one, you have a point there:rotfl:

BUT, I think the distinction is that they didn't know what they were doing would have long-term consequences like they do. They were successful in what they wanted to accomplish (no mo big floods) but the indirect consequences of their actions were not foreseen. In other words, looking back now knowing what we know now do you think we would build those levees along the MS River? People would surely have been flooded out again, but we would have a much healthier landscape. Good question

I think we are definitely smarter now than we were (maybe not in a common sense fashion:rotfl:) but technologically speaking we are.

Its funny how we shoot ourselves in the foot and never learn. The farmland in floodplains are much much more fertile than other places and its from the flooding that makes the soil fertile yet we lose one crop from flooding and we want to dam the river so that we won't lose another crop :confused:. The river was the 'fertilizer' for years, and now we dam up the river and spray fertilizer:shaking: its almost comical anyways...


but the gist is that (I think) the wiers are doing much more good than harm. There isn't ever going to be a shortage of trout in Louisiana but marshland is going away a football per hour, pretty easy call in my book

Doesn't appear that way from an aerial photo:confused: looks like its gone also. You may be seeing some coming back in places but its still a net loss each year overall. It can be (and probably is being done or has been done) look at an aerial and run stats on it from marsh loss/gain each year. Just make sure the aerials are taken during similar months. ERDAS software, may be available for a free download don't know

Facts? What facts do I need to present to you about a river system that you know little about?
In fact (oh there's that word again) I'm looking at a marsh right now that has turned into nothing but a **** hole due to saltwater north of the Barrier

Maybe they are?? Maybe they hurting??? We will not know for 20-50 year's. Save what little bit we got left, or let it rebuild?? I see both sides of it. But don't thank we any smarter then 30-40 year's ago. Cause seems like we still making the worse. And not letting it do it's own thing.


Are we being selfish for trying to keep it for our kids maybe grandkids, or should we save it for their kids and grandkids???

And again that map and maps y'all show are not, what the marsh is doing !!! It took year's and year's to build them and it took2 storm's to f them up!!! Just saying give them a chance.

Duck Butter


Blame Ship channel = cop out for weirs

What makes us so much smarter then our dad's and grandparents and there parents , that made there and fed their kids from the marsh and lake!!!

When they did what they did it was the best minds around!! (Don't forget they put a man on the moon with less CPU.power then in your watch!!) .... and they had no ideal what was going to happen to the marsh. Why are we that much smarter????? To thank we can know what's going to happen??

We done got so smart we can't even put a dog in space!!

But we can control mother nature!!!!
???????????? Maybe but I don't believe that!!!!!

I am done, going to eat.

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