Life is good.

Yea, that's me.......my credibility is always in question here.........you ............are in way over your head........

Duckman, you need to nip this in the bud right now, call Walton and Johnston and Hannity or somebody. This is how it starts, they start speaking Spanish and the next thing you know they start serving tacos and enchiladas in the lunchroom. I have already seen it at my sons school. All they serve is foreign foods like pizza and lasagna and spaghetti. Only American food they have is hamburgers and they serve that with FRENCH FRIES:help: Even heard they have breakfast burritos at some of these McDonalds and Sonics.

We are moving out of here because just the other day there were these old men in this store and they were speaking French, we told em this is America homeboys, you speak American here not French. Then we went to a nice place to eat and they had all these foreign words on the menu like beignets and au jus, and if that ain't enough to make a man lose his cool, they had this old man on one of them there accordians singing 'American Pie' in French:pissed:

Y'all keep thinking this isn't happening but I seent it with my own two eyes. Its happening boys, its happening.

and what the heck is this foreign holiday Mardi Gras or whatever they call it? My son told me they don't have school for two days because they are out for some holiday, them foreigners can kiss my butt trying to force their holidays on us. Last I heard we ain't French anymore:pissed:


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But....But.....Raymond said that French people have assimilated to American culture..

has the term 'draconian sanctions' been used yet?:grinpimp:

yes... just now.. once... :)

Damn it. I leave you boys alone for a few hours and it all goes straight to hell.lol. Ole vince sure seems to know a lot about everyone.
DB that was some funny stuff.

I was just thinking about the scene from Ron burgandy anchorman that escalated fast ! lol

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All good stuff. But for me (as a parent and a teacher), conscience comes first.

If a student has an issue of conscience with something, then they need to be free not to participate. Maybe it's a song, maybe sex ed, maybe a movie, maybe a play. In this case, it was reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish.

We need to protect our children's consciences against intrusions. How can we expect them to resist peer pressure that violates their consciences if we don't support them against governmental (school) pressure that violates their consciences?

Freedom of speech is also freedom not to speak, just as freedom of religion is freedom not to, and freedom of assembly is freedom not to.

My daughter ended up with an "F" for the semester in a course once because she exercised her conscience with regard to a reading assignment. My wife and I were fired from our positions as teachers at the school, because we would not force her to violate her conscience.

it just got real.......

Lol why is that.

I think we are all basically in agreement, basically we all support duckmans son making a decision that he feels good about. However i think we all also generally agree that he should be encouraged to expand his horizons, in particular if he is willing he should be encouraged to participate in this activity. Becoming more multicultural and tolerant will only help the young man in the future.

If however we are talking about "forcing" him, against his wishes... then i don't think anyone here thinks that is really a good idea.

What I mean is.....many many people have a stand.......very few are convicted enough to lose a job over it.........

I myself have been fired twice......but vermiculite may not believe me

at the end of the day, the young man is an American reciting the pledge of allegiance..it don't matter what language he says it in

If it matters to him, it matters to me.

Schools should not force diversity down students' throats against their will.

Freedom of speech is meaningless unless it includes freedom to remain silent.

Vermiculite... That was good for an early laugh, thanks Peddler!

Jon Stewart makes point

^^ I watched that. Great stuff. Guess that makes me a libtard.


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My boss invited me to his camp for what he called a couchon de lait and then we were going to catch sacaulait or something like that. I told him hell no I won't go and a matter of fact he can shove this job where the sun don't shine because this is America and we speak American amirite

amen brother preach it!!

The rhetorical approach of mocking to create a straw man fallacy is unwarranted.

The matter at hand is whether a young man should be allowed to respectfully refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance in spanish because doing so troubles his conscience.

I think duckman is trolling right? Let me rephrase that, I HOPE duckman is trolling:shaking:


They are pledging allegiance to the USA, whats the problem? Y'all are overthinking this, no need to write letters or call congressmen or lose your job over it:rotfl:

It appears we were screwed a long time ago. I'm boycotting all English.

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A person's right to exercise his conscience in refraining from an objectionable act does not and should not depend on whether that objection of conscience is reasonable to the majority or the instituting authority.

Attempts to de-legitimize the objection of conscience only serve to justify the state forcing the objectionable act upon the individual.

The idea behind the words, "This is not the big deal they are making it out to be" has been used to attempt to force all kinds of people to violate their consciences.

My point is that if a person's conscience is violated, it is a big deal to them, and the state should not be forcing people to violate their consciences.

Suppose an angler had a problem of conscience killing fish he caught that he did not intend to eat. Should the state make and enforce a law requiring that every specimen of some invasive species (say Northern Pike in some western streams and reservoirs) be killed immediately after it is caught? Should anglers be forced to kill fish they do not intend to eat, even if doing so violates their conscience?

To be sure, killing invasive species is good fisheries management, and I do not understand why someone would object to good fisheries management. But the exercise of free conscience should not depend on the reasonableness of the objection to the majority or to the governmental authority.

this statement can be applied to everything you are against...gay marriage, legalization of marijuana, the representation of cultural diversity in America...

Well said. Here we go another 100 comments. ;)


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I applaud you and your daughter for standing up for what you think is right. We are all entitled to do that, but we also have to face the consequences - i.e. getting an F, or getting fired. To me those decisions can affect you the rest of your life in a much more negative way than reading some book (I don't think the book your daughter was reading was Mein Kampf).

What book was it that your daughter was supposed to read that was worth you and your wife no longer having a job?

Not really in the way you think. The objection is with the use of force to override the individual conscience.

So if a bakery or church has an objection of conscience to providing services for a gay marriage, then the government should not force them to.

Cultural diversity should be represented in America, and I am in no way against that. I would be against forcing private parties to accommodate representation against their own wishes.

There are key differences in forcing private citizens to perform acts which violate their conscience and restricting them from certain acts through due process of Constitutional law. The boundaries of due process of Constitutional law to place behavioral restrictions are well established and explicitly enumerated.

And yes, there is a long history of feigning objections of conscience to avoid submitting to reasonable exercise of governmental authority. Lots of purported "conscientious objectors" to various wars were merely cowards trying to avoid military service. The movie, Sgt. York, had a good portrayal of a reasonable approach to accommodating a true conscientious objector and helping one work through the issues within the boundaries of his faith and conscience.

The question of malingering regarding school assignments is easily addressed by allowing alternate assignments in cases where the original assignment offends the conscience. I'm sure there are many good pieces of similar length and difficulty that can be learned and recited in spanish if reciting the Pledge of Allegiance offends an individual's conscience.

The proof of an authority's lust for power is when they refuse to allow an alternate assignment and insist on forcing a student to violate their conscience.

You miss the point entirely. The point is that there is no job worth parents forcing a child to violate the child's conscience.

Likewise, in the above case, the issue is not whether a student's exercise of conscience is reasonable with regard to reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in spanish, but whether the parents (and the school) should be forcing the child (in this case a young man) to violate his conscience.

The answer is no, neither schools nor parents should force children to violate their consciences in these matters. The conscience is what allows children and young adults to stand against peer pressure and all sorts of other evil.

The conscience is a precious treasure and should be defended and protected rather than violated.

And my wife and I were not unemployed for long. Within a few months, I had a far better teaching position and a salary increase of 60%. My wife only managed a 20% increase in her income, but cut her workload in half in the process.

No im not trolling. Im not going to be writing letters to anyone over the matter. Never was my plan. I simply told him he didnt have to do it if he didnt want to. I dont think him getting a F on one assignment in his sophmore spanish class will have any long term adverse effects.

[QUOTE=MathGeek;667808]Not really in the way you think. The objection is with the use of force to override the individual conscience.







There are key differences in forcing private citizens to perform acts which violate their conscience and restricting them from certain acts through due process of Constitutional law. The boundaries of due process of Constitutional law to place behavioral restrictions are well established and explicitly enumerated.









Id love to know how this doesn't apply to legalization of weed but I won't ask that since that.


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There should be a law that if a subject violoates your conscience in school you don't have to do it, the students could just say no I will not do this as it violates my conscience, high school and college would be a breeze, no class ever:rotfl:

Sometimes common sense ain't so common

There are a ton of things he is going to have to do that he doesn't want to do in his life (mow the yard, get a job, take a math test, etc). My kid didn't want to go to school today, he wanted to watch the rest of Cat in the Hat this morning:grinpimp:

There is a big difference between doing things you dont like to do and doing things you feel are morally wrong.

I feel it is morally wrong to pay a government with money that I earn, but I have to. I feel it is morally wrong to obey laws that protect me from myself, but I obey them due to the penalties that could be brought forth. I feel it is morally wrong that people on this forum view different languages and races other than English/white as sub-par and they aren't welcome here in America.

The constitution protects freedom of speech regardless of language. If they wanna sing in their native tongue or pledge their allegiance to the US then let them at it. Regardless of language, the translation to English is the same. It all means the same regardless of language, accent, cultural background, skin color, etc. If you can't see past those, then you are contributing to the decline of America as the greatest nation in the world.

Thank you !


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Wise beyond your years Sammich

You came up with all of that from me saying my son shouldnt have to say the pledge in spanish? I never once said I had any issue with foreigners saying the pledge in another language. I just dont think my son should be forced to learn it in another. Will he have to pay the consiquences for his decision? Yes he will. He knows what the consiquences are and is willing to pay them. If you do things that you feel are moraly wrong but you do them because you fear the penalties that is a personal choice of yours. I dont see how that applies here.

Dad - "Son, don't ever do anything that your conscience says not to do, speak your mind"

Son - "Good, because my conscience hates calling you sir because you're an idiot"

Dad - "Atta boy! You'll be a productive man in no time"

I doubt any of you would allow this scenario to play out right? Would you beat him and his conscience for a second or not?

I think his post was molded by a bunch of other input throughout this thread, along with the sentiment found in the coke thread - I wouldn't take it as a direct attack on you.

Boy would get his teethe rattled for some stupid sheet like that.

It's not at you I'm sure.


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Wrong quote


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yeah duckman, this isn't an attack at you at all. its a culmination of several threads and your post tipped me toward spilling what I thought about how this community represents itself.

Roger that bro. When I started it I figured there would be few agree and a few disagrees and that would be it. The snowball has grown and made for some good reading.lol

You can't ever assume that one here.


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We pretty much all agree that Duckman's son should do what he feels is right, as long as he understands that there is a consequence to his actions...

I am pretty sure we all also agree that his son should expand his viewpoints, and be open to multiculturalism (But not have it forced upon him) so that he can reap the benefits that it would offer him in a world very rapidly becoming more and more multicultural.


So someone gimme a refresher... what exactly are we discussing now? Who's on first?

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I think this is where the conversation was heading, then we were gonna make a pit stop at widgeon grass, gun control and red snapper regulations.

I don't mean to be petty... but you kind of forgot the whole very important tripletail issue there......

After reading everyones replies perhaps my original post left some in a do or dont situation. It would truely (I blieve) come down to your evaluation of your own child. If my boy was a dipsheet slacker he would be forced by me to do the assignment. It is the fact that he enjoys and does well in his spanish class that leads me to believe that he is doing this based on his principles. True, some may say his principles are wrong. If you do please explain to me how his refusal to say the pledge in spanish is harming our country in any way more than saying the pledge in spanish.