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Montauk17 08-28-2013 07:02 AM

Syria
 
Obama says Syria is responsible for these chemical weapon attacks on civilians, but people in the middle east are reporting that it's rebels armed by Obama who are responsible. What's the truth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfHSPLW63Gg

http://benswann.com/how-america-reac...yrus-vs-syria/

Goooh 08-28-2013 07:21 AM

The roman road

He is going in. I say leave it alone, but on the other hand it is a beautiful day to see him doing exactly what the libs hated bush for.




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mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goooh (Post 622132)
The roman road

He is going in. I say leave it alone, but on the other hand it is a beautiful day to see him doing exactly what the libs hated bush for.




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All govt is the same!

They all play off each other to keep their power in office.
Libertarian viewpoint on foreign involvement is the only way to avoid war. We have McCain (RINO) over here wanting to give the opposition weapons (look what happened with Afghanistan and Bin Laden). The U.S., G.B. and France VS Syria, Russia, Iran and China? Yeah, we lose. Lot's of people are going to die if it happens. Not trying to start anything, but if the worst case scenario does unfold, I'll bet they reinstate the draft. Of course, that's worst case scenario.

Matt G 08-28-2013 07:29 AM

There are times when war is necessary. It is necessary now.......... For Syria. Let them fight their own war. Arm the rebels? Maybe, but look how that turned out in A-stan when we armed the mujahideen to fight the Russians. Now those same weapons are killing Americans. We need to realize that the whole damn world hates us and no amount of international aid or policing we do will help that. F the world and keep our money here.

Goooh 08-28-2013 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjaredsandwich (Post 622134)
All govt is the same!

They all play off each other to keep their power in office.
Libertarian viewpoint on foreign involvement is the only way to avoid war. We have McCain (RINO) over here wanting to give the opposition weapons (look what happened with Afghanistan and Bin Laden). The U.S., G.B. and France VS Syria, Russia, Iran and China? Yeah, we lose. Lot's of people are going to die if it happens. Not trying to start anything, but if the worst case scenario does unfold, I'll bet they reinstate the draft. Of course, that's worst case scenario.

Yep. We ain't got the money to go flexing over there anyway, besides that let those idiots kill themselves. Just think, going to war against a country that owns you.

Going to war with China would be similar to fighting the north in the civil war, they'd just cut our a$$es off. We lose big time.

How about a nice nuke or 2 here in the oil and gas Mecca for the U.S.? We are a huge target on the coast.




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Top Dawg 08-28-2013 07:39 AM

Russia ain't got enough artillery to last a month.

mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Dawg (Post 622137)
Russia ain't got enough artillery to last a month.

You sure? Call that bluff!

MathGeek 08-28-2013 07:44 AM

There is no justification for US entry into the conflict in Syria. We are not the world's police force. They have not attacked nor threatened direct attack on the US.

Do we really want to set a precedent of jumping into a conflict any time nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons are used anywhere in the world? Why tempt the losing side in these quagmires to lobby for our entry by faking to be victims of chemical weapon use?

There is no clear goal that can be quickly reached with US involvement. There is no clear exit strategy. Entry suggests that we would be signing up for another long term nation building deal that would make our soldiers over there sitting ducks for a long time.

We need to sit this one out on three fronts: 1. No direct military action (boots on the ground or air support.) 2. No weapons assistance. 3. No advisory or intelligence assistance.

Top Dawg 08-28-2013 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjaredsandwich (Post 622139)
You sure? Call that bluff!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Air_Force

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Navy

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy

mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 07:56 AM

Don't know what you're trying to present here other than a website that can be edited by people like you and me.:spineyes::smokin:

Top Dawg 08-28-2013 07:58 AM

True. But the Russian military wouldn't make a pimple on our military's azz.

ironworker 08-28-2013 07:58 AM

The Russian Navy has suffered severely since the dissolution of the Soviet Union due to insufficient maintenance, lack of funding and thereby training of personnel and timely replacement of equipment. Another setback is attributed to Russia's domestic shipbuilding industry which is reported to have been in decline as to their capabilities of constructing contemporary hardware efficiently. Some analysts even say that because of this Russia's naval capabilities have been facing a slow but certain "irreversible collapse".[4][5] But other analysts say that because of the recent rise in mineral prices have enabled a sort of 'Renaissance of the Russian Navy' due to increased available funds, allowing Russia to begin 'developing the capacity to once again become a maritime threat to Western naval power'.[6]

Purple Back 08-28-2013 07:58 AM

I say we go to war! And I hope China, Russia, Syria, etc all come get some! Our country needs a reminder of what is important, Faith, Family, Freedom! Every time there is a mojor world war this country remembers what their priorities are.

mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Dawg (Post 622146)
True. But the Russian military wouldn't make a pimple on our military's azz.

Hitler thought the same ;)

Clampy 08-28-2013 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathGeek (Post 622141)
There is no justification for US entry into the conflict in Syria. We are not the world's police force. They have not attacked nor threatened direct attack on the US.

Do we really want to set a precedent of jumping into a conflict any time nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons are used anywhere in the world? Why tempt the losing side in these quagmires to lobby for our entry by faking to be victims of chemical weapon use?

There is no clear goal that can be quickly reached with US involvement. There is no clear exit strategy. Entry suggests that we would be signing up for another long term nation building deal that would make our soldiers over there sitting ducks for a long time.

We need to sit this one out on three fronts: 1. No direct military action (boots on the ground or air support.) 2. No weapons assistance. 3. No advisory or intelligence assistance.

Well I guess we can agree on something.



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southern151 08-28-2013 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622148)
I say we go to war! And I hope China, Russia, Syria, etc all come get some! Our country needs a reminder of what is important, Faith, Family, Freedom! Every time there is a mojor world war this country remembers what their priorities are.

The men that fought in the first two world wars don't exist in huge quantities today, like they did then. There are too damn many slugs that don't care whose rule we fall under so long as they still get their free stuff.

We need to stay the heck away from this deal! Like MG said, we aren't the world's police. We can't hold the hand of every nation.

mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southern151 (Post 622179)
The men that fought in the first two world wars don't exist in huge quantities today, like they did then. There are too damn many slugs that don't care whose rule we fall under so long as they still get their free stuff.

We need to stay the heck away from this deal! Like MG said, we aren't the world's police. We can't hold the hand of every nation.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4Xli6ZW68c...eamAmerica.jpg

PUTTING THE F BACK IN FREEDOM

AceArcher 08-28-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Dawg (Post 622146)
True. But the Russian military wouldn't make a pimple on our military's azz.

look up russian army vs us army while your at it. And don't kid yourself about capability.

The russian ground force capability, and in particular the excellent and very large artillery were the main reasons why US doctrine in the Fulda gap was solely based on tactical nukes. Our leaders knew that even with air superiority(which is not a guaranteed thing, russia excels in surface to air tech as well), and a technical advantage we could not beat them without use of tactical nukes.

To be blunt some of the newer weapon systems that russia has recently developed are pretty damned impressive. The newer T90 MBT are at the least on equal footing with the Abrams, Merkava, leopard 2, etc...

There not just playing the old "overwhelming" numbers game.

AceArcher 08-28-2013 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathGeek (Post 622141)
There is no justification for US entry into the conflict in Syria. We are not the world's police force. They have not attacked nor threatened direct attack on the US.

Do we really want to set a precedent of jumping into a conflict any time nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons are used anywhere in the world? Why tempt the losing side in these quagmires to lobby for our entry by faking to be victims of chemical weapon use?

There is no clear goal that can be quickly reached with US involvement. There is no clear exit strategy. Entry suggests that we would be signing up for another long term nation building deal that would make our soldiers over there sitting ducks for a long time.

We need to sit this one out on three fronts: 1. No direct military action (boots on the ground or air support.) 2. No weapons assistance. 3. No advisory or intelligence assistance.


A very libertarian attitude if i do say so myself. Agreed 100%, sadly neither the republicans nor the democrats will ever take this positioning.

CajunSteelsetter 08-28-2013 09:29 AM

I don't want to end up in some hot sandy place to get blown up because Syria wants to fight with itself. They tell me "go", and I sure as heck will, but I'm not for getting involved in more pointless wars.

Slidellkid 08-28-2013 09:35 AM

I say it's all good when Muslims are killing Muslims - the more the better; however, Dumbazz will shoot some rockets over there and then the Russians will get pizzed. No telling what will happen then. Is it really in our national interest to have any play over there. Who is to say what will happen and who will be in charge of Syria if the rebels do overthrow Assad. Look what happened in Egypt, that was supposed to turn out to be a good thing but the Muslim Brotherhood took over. Of course, Obama now supports them - how screwed up is that?

Clampy 08-28-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceArcher (Post 622187)
A very libertarian attitude if i do say so myself. Agreed 100%, sadly neither the republicans nor the democrats will ever take this positioning.

Listen to the media and you will hear the
" rhythm of the war drums"

http://youtu.be/urrFL95bjcU



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AceArcher 08-28-2013 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622148)
I say we go to war! And I hope China, Russia, Syria, etc all come get some! Our country needs a reminder of what is important, Faith, Family, Freedom! Every time there is a mojor world war this country remembers what their priorities are.

Your trolling right? World war at this stage equals almost assured use of nukes. We won't just return to "faith, family, and freedom"... we would return to the stone ages.

I'm pretty sure you can't possibly be serious....

AceArcher 08-28-2013 10:06 AM

Here's an interesting write up on this situation from the same man who brought us the Quantitative Easing Explained cartoon.

I'm not sure that i agree with everything said.. but.. words for thoughts at least.

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2013...e-leaders.html

mriguy 08-28-2013 10:08 AM

To hell with both sides!!! Who do you support in a civil war between Al Qeida (sp) and the Muslim Brotherhood???

Let the worthless UN forces supply food and health services to the innocent civilians. Thats it

BassmanDan 08-28-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Dawg (Post 622146)
True. But the Russian military wouldn't make a pimple on our military's azz.

Same thing they said about North Vietnam. How long have we been in that 3rd or 4th world country--Afganistan?

Purple Back 08-28-2013 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceArcher (Post 622201)
Your trolling right? World war at this stage equals almost assured use of nukes. We won't just return to "faith, family, and freedom"... we would return to the stone ages.

I'm pretty sure you can't possibly be serious....

I am serious, this world has turned evil. And if I die, so be it, I'm ready to go meet my maker and get away from this evil consumed planet. I am not so sure that I would not rather the stone ages.

Side Note: Enemy tactics would probably have them hit the large cities which would eliminate about 90% of the people who don't contribute $hit to this country.

Spunt Drag 08-28-2013 11:07 AM

No one in the world can come close to a toe-to-toe fight with the American Military. The capabilities of our military compared to anybody else's is staggering. Please leave Afghan and Vietnam Guerrilla tactics out of it, that's apples to bowling balls. I take pride in knowing the dominance of this country's defense, and so should everyone else.

And we should stay out of Syria.

bmac 08-28-2013 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622230)
I am serious, this world has turned evil. And if I die, so be it, I'm ready to go meet my maker and get away from this evil consumed planet. I am not so sure that I would not rather the stone ages.

Side Note: Enemy tactics would probably have them hit the large cities which would eliminate about 90% of the people who don't contribute $hit to this country.

Nutcase

Spunt Drag 08-28-2013 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622230)
I am serious, this world has turned evil. And if I die, so be it, I'm ready to go meet my maker and get away from this evil consumed planet. I am not so sure that I would not rather the stone ages.

Side Note: Enemy tactics would probably have them hit the large cities which would eliminate about 90% of the people who don't contribute $hit to this country.





Hahaha then I hope they start with New Orleans first.

mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622230)
I am serious, this world has turned evil. And if I die, so be it, I'm ready to go meet my maker and get away from this evil consumed planet. I am not so sure that I would not rather the stone ages.

Side Note: Enemy tactics would probably have them hit the large cities which would eliminate about 90% of the people who don't contribute $hit to this country.

Or if they thought logically, they'd attack the areas that keep the country running. I.e., power plants, oil refineries, ports, etc.

haoward 08-28-2013 11:18 AM

How can we fight a War if the "people" want to cut Funding for the military.....
As a Prior Service Airborne Infantry Sergeant with a tour to Afghanistan.
I hate how some people in the United State don't support the military but when something like "syria" Happen they wan't to go to war..


If it was me I would just leave it alone, but I KNOW FOR a FACT that Almost 70% of infantry guys including myself Would "GO TO WAR" if needed. We TRAIN AND LIVE FOR war.

Goooh 08-28-2013 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622230)
I am serious, this world has turned evil. And if I die, so be it, I'm ready to go meet my maker and get away from this evil consumed planet. I am not so sure that I would not rather the stone ages.

Side Note: Enemy tactics would probably have them hit the large cities which would eliminate about 90% of the people who don't contribute $hit to this country.

And the oils and gas that makes our country run. Guess where that is????????????????


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Purple Back 08-28-2013 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goooh (Post 622246)
And the oils and gas that makes our country run. Guess where that is????????????????


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Liek I said, I am ready to go whenever.

southern151 08-28-2013 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag (Post 622237)
No one in the world can come close to a toe-to-toe fight with the American Military. The capabilities of our military compared to anybody else's is staggering. Please leave Afghan and Vietnam Guerrilla tactics out of it, that's apples to bowling balls. I take pride in knowing the dominance of this country's defense, and so should everyone else.

And we should stay out of Syria.

It's not the ability being used in Afghan. no more than the ability used on the NVA. The problem, in Korea also, was our gov't not letting soldiers do what they were trained to do. Since WW2, we have been made into a "polite", if you will, military. Our troops are forced to "play by the rules" against troops who don't care to read what the rules are.

I doubt our gov't is going to drop the "polite" deal now any more than another enemy force is going to start using it. In my mind, our military has its hands tied.

And, NO, we don't need to go to Syria for anything. We don't need to fund them with money we don't have and, we don't need to supply them with weapons that they'll likely use against us in the end.

CajunSteelsetter 08-28-2013 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haoward (Post 622244)
How can we fight a War if the "people" want to cut Funding for the military.....
As a Prior Service Airborne Infantry Sergeant with a tour to Afghanistan.
I hate how some people in the United State don't support the military but when something like "syria" Happen they wan't to go to war..


If it was me I would just leave it alone, but I KNOW FOR a FACT that Almost 70% of infantry guys including myself Would "GO TO WAR" if needed. We TRAIN AND LIVE FOR war.


x10! Like I said, I don't particularly want to go to a hot sandy place and kill people I don't have any beef with, but if they say "go", I sure as H3!! know what to do.
"Bred to fight, trained to kill. Infantry.":flagUS:

Purple Back 08-28-2013 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haoward (Post 622244)
How can we fight a War if the "people" want to cut Funding for the military.....
As a Prior Service Airborne Infantry Sergeant with a tour to Afghanistan.
I hate how some people in the United State don't support the military but when something like "syria" Happen they wan't to go to war..


If it was me I would just leave it alone, but I KNOW FOR a FACT that Almost 70% of infantry guys including myself Would "GO TO WAR" if needed. We TRAIN AND LIVE FOR war.

I am an ex 11B myself, airborne qualified, did a tour in Iraq from 02 to 03. That being said, I wish to never spend another minute in any of those God foresaken countrys. But unforntunately if we don't bring the war to them they will bring it to us. There is a lot of strategy put into these things.......

southern151 08-28-2013 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjaredsandwich (Post 622241)
Or if they thought logically, they'd attack the areas that keep the country running. I.e., power plants, oil refineries, ports, etc.

You are correct and, if someone was serious about invading us, that's exactly where they'd go first. Cutting our infrastructure (i.e. bridges, oil) would be the ultimate way to cut the head off of the snake.

9/11 wasn't meant to be a full-on invasion, IMO. It was meant for a shock and, awe event...A way for them to tell us that they are out there.

haoward 08-28-2013 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southern151 (Post 622249)
It's not the ability being used in Afghan. no more than the ability used on the NVA. The problem, in Korea also, was our gov't not letting soldiers do what they were trained to do. Since WW2, we have been made into a "polite", if you will, military. Our troops are forced to "play by the rules" against troops who don't care to read what the rules are.

I doubt our gov't is going to drop the "polite" deal now any more than another enemy force is going to start using it. In my mind, our military has its hands tied.

And, NO, we don't need to go to Syria for anything. We don't need to fund them with money we don't have and, we don't need to supply them with weapons that they'll likely use against us in the end.

You are right too many rule in war, We have to follow the rule but the enemy does NOT. If it was up to the guys on the ground the war would have been over long time ago. BEEN there, done that in Afghanistan rules are rules

Clampy 08-28-2013 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southern151 (Post 622252)
You are correct and, if someone was serious about invading us, that's exactly where they'd go first. Cutting our infrastructure (i.e. bridges, oil) would be the ultimate way to cut the head off of the snake.

9/11 wasn't meant to be a full-on invasion, IMO. It was meant for a shock and, awe event...A way for them to tell us that they are out there.

It did what it was supposed to. Change our way of life. Cameras everywhere. TSA crap. Etc.


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AceArcher 08-28-2013 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Back (Post 622251)
I am an ex 11B myself, airborne qualified, did a tour in Iraq from 02 to 03. That being said, I wish to never spend another minute in any of those God foresaken countrys. But unforntunately if we don't bring the war to them they will bring it to us. There is a lot of strategy put into these things.......

Let me clarify a couple thing before i ask you to clarify the above.

1) I am not saying that we cannot go toe to toe with anyone, we most certainly can.

2) I am saying that to dismiss a potential enemy as "not being worth a pimple on our azz" is pretty foolish thinking, and quite frankly every enemy post WWII who we not taken seriously has handed us our azzes.

After 60+ years of post WWII conflicts, and 20+ years post cold war. Our military has just now really begun transforming itself to it's current mission of anti/terrorist / insurgency fighting. It remains to be seen if giving up our large scale conflict preparedness is the right thing to do.

You say above that we need to wage war on them or they will come and wage war on us.

Without a strong coalition of foreign nations (think Soviets, China, + middle east) coming together there will be no battles fought on american land (this assumes euro neutrality (if they choose to side with us, the battles will occur on their land first)

If instead of traditional war your referring to terrorism, Then that is actually a facet of the methods in which countries choose to enforce their particular brand of -ism. Terror tactics were created to fight / wage war upon an opponent whom you cannot hope to best in a traditional manner. The problem / downfall of this is that in fighting terrorists you have to adopt unconventional tactics and you thereby create more terrorists every time you kill them.

Thus, our policy should be one of "Live and Let Die" mind our own damned business, stop investing in goat herder futures, and start investing in our own nations infrastructure. Whether it be through exploitation of our own energy fields, or its getting going with proven hydrogen fuel tech, we certainly have the ability NOW to be energy independant.

We should support our Strong Allies in the case of aggressions against their borders. But short of that we should mind our own business.

What's holding these things up is not just the world politics it's the money. Do you think the OIL lobby wants to create a situation where america will become less oil dependant? Do you think the Military Industrial Lobby wants peace?

Alternatively we can keep sending our 18 & 19 year old's to the mideast, who will undoubtably shoot a couple mullahs, with a few civilian casualty's on the side, and thereby help to grow the next generation of terrorists. I guess if it gets to be to much to handle we can just nuke the whole lot of em..... that should work well?

bmac 08-28-2013 12:51 PM

This seems like a pretty good synopsis of the situation in Syria, broken down "knucklehead" style. ELI5 "Explain It Like I'm 5"

http://en.reddit.com/r/explainlikeim...ia_and/cbwb1ld

Quote:

Copy and pasted from Similar thread. This is all from Memory. None of it will be properly referenced. This may be more detailed that you need, but other may find it useful, and also, some of the issues mentioned earlier on become important later on.
INTRODUCTION Syria is 'run' by the Al-Assad family. It has been for many years. The Assad's are member of the Alawite sect of Shia Islam.
Long story short, pretty soon after Islam was founded, Shia and Sunnis split. And they hate each other in the way that only former friends can.
REGIONAL BALANCE OF POWER Up until 2003, Iran was the only majority Shia country on the planet. Every other muslim country was EITHER 1) A sunni Majority, or 2) Had a Sunni ruler in place. This was the cause of the civil war in Iraq, Saddam had been Sunni, but the country was majority Shia.
Syria is a majority Sunni country, BUT, the ruling group (Asad's) are Shia. There is also a sizeable Christain minority. Iran and Syria are close, as they are both Shia governed countries. But Syria, as mentioned, is different to Iran in that Shia are the minority.
The other major country to note here is Saudia Arabia. Sunni Islam, and really dislike Shia muslims.
ARAB SPRING In Early 2011, a fruit vendor in Tunisia, protesting against corruption and the difficulty in eeking out a subsistence, set himself on fire, and with him, went the whole region. Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Eygpt, Yemen and Syria all saw significant protests against the ruling Parties (Countries where living was not as difficult/the ruling party was popular/ countries were better governed saw some protests, but generally, concessions were made and agreements were reached). They all ended differently.
Morrocco and Alegeria saw the Monarchs make promises/ reprimand the government, promise increased freedoms. This combined with the better local living conditions saw the protests peeter out. Bahrain put down their protests with no aversion to violence. The west kept relatively quiet about this. Tunisia, Yemen and Eygpt saw their governments overthrown.
Only in Libya and Syria did it go to an all out civil war. In Libya, Gaddaffi was already unpopular with the west for his state-sponsorship of terrorism. Assad had generally flown under the radar, but people didn't like him as he was close to Iran (for reasons mentioned earlier).
WHAT RUSSIA AND SYRIA LEARNT FROM LIBYA. Gaddaffi, already a cartoon villian in the west, went out 'guns blazing' against the protester-come-rebels. Uprisings in various cities (Bengahzi etc) were being put down. Libya's limited airforce was proving a decisive factor both militarially and psychologically. Before long, it was clear to the rebels that victory, without air assets would be costly and expensive. To drive this point home, Gaddaffis air assets were hitting civilian and military targets as if to suggest that there was nothing they could do to resist him. No-where to hide.
The UN Secuirty Counsel, as a result of air assets being used in civilians, passed a resolution enforcing a no-fly-zone over Libya. (Note about the UNSC. It is 15 members, but the 5 that count are the 5 victorious powers from WWII, Russia, China, USA, UK and France. They all have a 'Veto' ie, if something is proposed for the UNSC to do, any 1 of these 5 can veto it, and it is dead, no matter the opinion of the other 14 members. In practice this means convincing Russia and China to let the resolutions that US/Uk/'the west' want to go through, to be allowed to pass.)
The idea being that Libyan air planes would no longer be free to bomb civilians. However, at the risk of using imflamatory terminology, China and Russia were upset at how 'Protection of Civilians' turned into 'UK/US providing air support to Rebels to oust Gaddaffi'. The Wests air support sung the tide of battle and Tripoli fell to the Rebels weeks later. Gaddaffi was found in a ditch and shot. Government of 40+ years over. Democracy? We'll see.
RUSSIA: 'FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU'. This left just one country in a state of flux. Syria. Already unpopular with the west due to it's 'closeness' to Iran, Syria's unpopularity deepened when the Government refused to make deomcratic reform (objectionable to 'Western Countries') and started cracking down on/ torturing pro-democracy supporters (really objectionable to 'Western Countries').
Russia was much more attached to Syria. It's closer geographically, culturally, economically. Russia liked the Government in Syria, and frankly, Russia isn't too fussed if you are heavy-handed with protestors. But most importantly. Russia only Port in the Mediterrainian Sea is in Syria. If it loses that, no russian warships could be in the Mediterrainian except as Turkey or UK/Spain permit.
So, for economic, cultural and religious reasons. SYRIA IS NOT SO MUCH IMPORTANT TO THE WEST, AS IT IS IMPORTANT TO RUSSIA AND IRAN. AND THE LOSS OF THE ASSAD GOVERNMENT IN SYRIA WOULD REPRESENT A BLOW TO RUSSIA AND IRAN. ALSO, ALL THE TORTURE AND REPRESSION BY ASSAD MAKES THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT VERY UNPOPULAR IN THE WEST.
So when Western Governments came to the UNSC and said 'We must do for Syria what we did for Libya', the Russians and Chinese shut that down. No way. Not going to happen. Without a UNSC mandate to intervene, any action would be in breach of international law. Which brings us too...
'WESTERN' DEMOCRATIC VALUES The West likes to support people who will be democratic and follow international laws. To this end, Obama has stated that the use of Chemical weapons in Syria would represent a 'red line' which would trigger NATO intervention, regardless of UNSC approval. Fact is, if you are going to break with international law and invade a country, you need a damn good excuse. Chemcial weapons are such an excuse.
Fair or not, Western Countries are seen as protectors world-wide. When the Genocide in Rwanda happened, it was condemned as a War Crime. But who was responsible for sitting back and doing nothing? US, Canada, UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Holland, Spain 'Western Countries'. No-one blamed the Chinese or Russians for their failure to act.
Casting themselves in this role, it is these countries that people look to for support against dictators.
CHANGING NATURE OF THE REBELLIION The rebels, when originally formed, were seen in a almost universally positive light, defectors from a corrupt regieme, and brave freedom fighters looking to overthrow a dictator.
As time went on, and as more and more focus was placed on the rebels, Western Governments grew suspicious that these were not/were no longer brave freedom fighters, but Al Qieda/ Taliban/ Anti-West fighters, who were interesting in using the fluid state of Syria to win the rebellion and set up a hardline muslim country.
WHERE DOES THAT ALL LEAVE US? Time and again the West calls for democratic reform. And will support rebels with this goal. The West finds the repression of protests, along with the torture of protesters and the use of chemical weapons particularly objectionable. This, and Syria's relationship to Iran, and Russia, particularly the projection of Russian sea power, has meant that the west sees Syria as a Government, which if it were to fall, would not be missed. Knowing that UNSC approval for military intervention would be impossible, President Obama stated that UNSC approval or no, we'd go and take out the Syrians if Chemical weapons were used.
Chemcials weapons have been used, but we can not confirm by whom.
So we watch, and we wait. Russia has made it obvious that it will stand by Syria. Whether that means actual military actions against US and other western nations should they try to intervene in Syria, it's not clear. Also the problem of after-math rears its ugly head. Since the 'Red line' comment, there are more and more indicators, that the Rebels might not just be freedom fights, but islamists and others, who would establish a Islamic state. It is important to note, that this would be a Sunnni islamic state, as most of these fighters come from Sunni countries. And if there was a Sunni Islamic state, you can be fairly sure that teh Shia minority would have a torrid time, after the events of the past few weeks. A genocide could be possible. And stopping that sort of **** is why the West wanted to go in to Syria in the first place. Annoyingly, it could be that Assad would be the least brutal ruler of Syria.
CONCLUSIONS The Fact is, who is running Syria and why we should be involved is not as important to us as it is to other Countries. Russia and Iran both, for different reasons, like the Syrian Government and want it to stay in Power. Saudia Arabia, USA's close ally, dislike Syria, for mainly religious reasons, and want them gone. And finally, Western Governments find their approach to the pro-democracy protests as well as the use of chemical weapons an unacceptable way for a government to behave.
The West doesn't like them, the West regional allies don't like them. And they support the West Geo-political opponents. Thats the reason.
EDIT: For Spelling EDIT 2: Bashir changed to Assad. I shouldn't really write as though i'm on first name terms with the President of Syria.
EDIT 3: I confused the government response in Yemen with Bahrain. And forgot that the Egypt controlled an entrance to the Mediterranean. Fixed mow.



eman 08-28-2013 01:08 PM

In WW! and WW2 and The Korean war ,Generals made the decisions, Generals gave the orders. When this was the sop we won wars .
Once we came to the age of instant communication. The politicians were able to stick their noses into the day to day operations on the battlefield. From that point on we have not "won" anything

Purple Back 08-28-2013 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceArcher (Post 622271)
Let me clarify a couple thing before i ask you to clarify the above.

1) I am not saying that we cannot go toe to toe with anyone, we most certainly can.

2) I am saying that to dismiss a potential enemy as "not being worth a pimple on our azz" is pretty foolish thinking, and quite frankly every enemy post WWII who we not taken seriously has handed us our azzes.

After 60+ years of post WWII conflicts, and 20+ years post cold war. Our military has just now really begun transforming itself to it's current mission of anti/terrorist / insurgency fighting. It remains to be seen if giving up our large scale conflict preparedness is the right thing to do.

You say above that we need to wage war on them or they will come and wage war on us.

Without a strong coalition of foreign nations (think Soviets, China, + middle east) coming together there will be no battles fought on american land (this assumes euro neutrality (if they choose to side with us, the battles will occur on their land first)

If instead of traditional war your referring to terrorism, Then that is actually a facet of the methods in which countries choose to enforce their particular brand of -ism. Terror tactics were created to fight / wage war upon an opponent whom you cannot hope to best in a traditional manner. The problem / downfall of this is that in fighting terrorists you have to adopt unconventional tactics and you thereby create more terrorists every time you kill them.

Thus, our policy should be one of "Live and Let Die" mind our own damned business, stop investing in goat herder futures, and start investing in our own nations infrastructure. Whether it be through exploitation of our own energy fields, or its getting going with proven hydrogen fuel tech, we certainly have the ability NOW to be energy independant.

We should support our Strong Allies in the case of aggressions against their borders. But short of that we should mind our own business.

What's holding these things up is not just the world politics it's the money. Do you think the OIL lobby wants to create a situation where america will become less oil dependant? Do you think the Military Industrial Lobby wants peace?

Alternatively we can keep sending our 18 & 19 year old's to the mideast, who will undoubtably shoot a couple mullahs, with a few civilian casualty's on the side, and thereby help to grow the next generation of terrorists. I guess if it gets to be to much to handle we can just nuke the whole lot of em..... that should work well?

All good valid points, but I did not dismiss a potential enemy as "not being worth a pimple on our azz". That was someone else.

And I did not say that we need to wage war on them, I said unfortunately that if we do nothing, it will eventually spill over into the US.

I believe you take me for an individual that believes we should engage in the same tactics as our previous engagements. My belief is exact opposite, we should engage first, yes, but do it with muscle and make an example that the US is no longer a bunch of p u s sies. We should go in and slaughter all who are associated with terrosists organizations. It would take roughly a month. Then pull our troops back to the US. Then dare any terrosist group to organize and make the same mistake. If it were done in this manner, it would not cost the US but a fraction of the normal cost associated.

"W" 08-28-2013 01:16 PM

Air raid....bomb all there air strips, air bases, command post and just keep dropping bombs for a week then stop

Call them up ask ;

We got 1 million xs more of that! Whats up!

Clampy 08-28-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "W" (Post 622290)
Air raid....bomb all there air strips, air bases, command post and just keep dropping bombs for a week then stop

Call them up ask ;

We got 1 million xs more of that! Whats up!

You watched oriley last night too I see.
I love that show. Best unintentional comedy out there.


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mcjaredsandwich 08-28-2013 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "W" (Post 622290)
Air raid....bomb all there air strips, air bases, command post and just keep dropping bombs for a week then stop

Call them up ask ;

We got 1 million xs more of that! Whats up!

That strategy worked in Vietnam, didn't it? :rolleyes:

PReaux 08-28-2013 01:59 PM

yes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Goooh (Post 622246)
And the oils and gas that makes our country run. Guess where that is????????????????



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Gooh hit it right on top of the head . . . My wife and I lived in Kuwait and Saudi for 2 1/2 years back in the mid 70's . . . Those people been fightin for 1000's of years . . . We wouldn't be having this discussion if the United States was in a state of "Energy Independence" . . . we're not that far from that right now . . . The Keystone pipeline is/close to being complete . . . all the way to Pt. Arthur . . . guess who won't open the valve . . .
Anybody remember the PLO? . . .

"W" 08-28-2013 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcjaredsandwich (Post 622303)
That strategy worked in Vietnam, didn't it? :rolleyes:

We had ground troops...none needed here!!! you can have all you can stand by air and ships

Matt G 08-28-2013 02:17 PM

We are the best standing military complex in the world. That isn't even debatable, but so was England in 1775–1783 and they got whooped by a bunch of farmers. Guerilla tactics are extremely relevant, because that's what our enemies will use on us just like we did against ours when we were the out-manned and out-gun troops on the field. We might not be flat out beat by them, but they will tie us up in another decade of fighting someone else's war. I look at it as a fight between brothers. If I'm whooping up on my brother, it's all good. But when the other guy comes in and touches him, we'll both kick your @$$.


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