Getting neighbors onboard with big buck mgmt
 

My neighbors shoot everything. I lease 40 acres in Allen Parish and to the north and south I have two clubs that are 'brown and down' and they hunt right on the edge of our property. I am wanting to grow big bucks but they keep shooting all my deer I am growing. We have strict rules where deer must be 12" wide and a 6 pt or better unless its a kid's first buck and they can shoot anything. Most my land is cutover and my 2 uncles and I have 5 stands. We feed corn and rice bran all year and have cameras out also. We have 3 food plots of wheat about 1/8 acre each. We have pics in the summer of several does, a spike, a 4 pt, a 6 pt, and a 7 pt and a 'good 8' but only at night. Only one of my uncles bowhunts and we both killed opening day, he shot a doe and I thought I shot at a doe (it was dark) but it was a spike (honest mistake).

Opening day of youth rifle, I brought my kid and my uncle brought his. Both kids saw does eating corn that morning but we were holding out on a buck as they had killed does last year. My kid was able to shoot a 6 pt late that evening. We tracked it but never found it as it went into a slough we couldn't cross.

Opening day of rifle, I had two does under the feeder but holding out for that big 8 we have pics of. My uncles both killed does and one of them shot the 7 pt we had on camera. It was only a basket rack 12" wide but pretty tall.

The rest of the season we hunted hard. Two times we stayed til 10:30 am but never saw that big 8 nor got pics of it. What really chaps me is that the last weekend of rifle, I watched that 4 pt feed under my feeder at daylight and he walked over to the neighbors property line and I heard a shot. I know they shot that little buck:pissed:

Please tell me how I can go about talking to my neighbors about letting some deer walk so we can get some big genes into our area? And what can I plant on my property this time of year to ensure that the deer have plenty of protein to grow big antlers? :confused: Thanks in advance

Dude you hunt in Louisiana, nobody here lets anything walk?? Our state motto is " its brown, its down"

My cousin killed a good one last year while running dogs on his place in Beauregard Parish and he told me they are on strict trophy mgmt where they only shoot it if its 12" or 6 pt or better and thats why we went on this mgmt plan because my cousin pays money for the DMAP program. He also subscribes to like 5 deer hunting magazines so I think he knows what he is talking about;) I just want something to put on the wall and we can't do that if my neighbors are shooting all the little bucks I am trying to grow:pissed:

Unless you can get the neighbors to agree to your rules you are wasting time and money. You just don't have enough land to try to manage a herd.
About all you can do is work up a presentation give it to them and get ready to get laughed at.

Lol this dude has 40 acres with 5 deer stands on it and he wants his neighbors to change the way they hunt for him. I am amazed you manage to kill any deer off your property with that many people hunting it!

Unless yall own the land yall hunt I would let it go and find a bigger piece of land to lease. I hate hunting Louisiana due to "brown and down" and logging just before or during season.... that's why I like west Texas but then you have to "pay to play"

Best you can do is make a presentation to your neighbors and try and get them to buy into the program. Like others have said.. your 40 acres is not enough to make it even worth trying to manage the herd. If they also have small properties it's probably wasted time all around.

I would meet with them and explain that you would be very interested in doing something like that in cooperation with them. I can tell you for a fact that even one year of a six point or better rule can pay some big dividends the next year.

Serious

If I was you, pull to the trigger clicks!! 40 acres is not going to hold a pair of deer!! Kill what you see and hope you get lucky on a beast

But if you let it walk, your neighbor will take it

And that is just how it's is! Nuff said:smokin:

You have no chance of growing a heard on 40 Ac. If you let a small buck walk your neighbor will shoot it. You will be met with stiff opposition from your neighbors but its worth your time to talk to them and try to explain that if you all work together all of you may start seeing better bucks.

A deer herd will optimize meat production if most bucks are shot at age 1.5.

Food plots will put deer where you can shoot them. Consideration of soil types and pH will suggest the best forage for increasing protein, but sometimes you just gotta try a few different things to see what likes your soil. Turnips, clover, etc. You also need to consider when you need more protein. If there is a big acorn crop nearby, increasing protein when the acorns are falling is a waste. Turnips can be a great protein supplement in fall, winter, or spring, depending on when you plant them.

Please explain the first sentence about shooting buck at 1.5 years old?

Nothing against your place, but 40 acres is not enough to do anything in regards to managing. Plus 5 stands with 3 good plots is too many. I have 6 stands on over 300 acres with only 4 plots.

X2


"Go ahead, share your opinion! I won't cry"

Where can you bring a soil sample to see what will grow best in my area?

A buck will gain a lot more weight between 0.5 and 1.5 than he will between 1.5 and 2.5. But he'll eat more between 1.5 and 2.5. A given amount of forage (carrying capacity) produces the most meat when the males are harvested at about 70% of their eventual adult weight, because gaining that last 30% of weight takes as much food (or more) as the first 70%. This is why most beef cattle are made into meat at 18-24 months old even though they would gain a bit more weight by waiting until they are 36 months old. It is not beneficial (cost wise) to keep feeding them to peak weight. The feed is more efficiently used by younger beef cattle.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a misnomer which really means Quality Antler Management. The meat is better and there can be more of it if most bucks are harvested at 1.5.

40 acres won't get u the management u need.And 5 stands, too much pressure!! I have no-go areas on my place that are 30-40 acres. Supplimental feed is ok, but deer are browsers not grazers. If you have prefered natrual forge on your place,(what deer prefer) inhance it, fertilize it. Deer on my place won't touch corn until temp drops around 40 or below. Turnip only after the freeze. The bucks you see during spring / summer may not be there during the season. Deer I see during the summer usually disappear during the season and different ones come in. Killed one on my place that we had seen during 2 hunting seasons but someone else had pics of it 5-6 miles away during the summer months over a 2 year period. my place is in SWLA.

Please don't start deer hunting anywhere near Woodville,Ms. When hunters start using the same mentality on recreational property as they do in slaughter houses, hunting is down hill.

That's my thinking as well. This makes since for meat hunters.

I don't know anyone that manages their deer for meat. I'm sure there are some but the big majority manage for antler size.

I don't have any numbers but I'd be willing to bet my left foot that over 90% who do manage manage for antler size.

The "brown is down" approach is effectively equivalent to managing for maximizing for meat harvest.

One only arrives at the conclusion that 90% of management targets improvements in antlers if one defines "management" as passing on shot opportunities at legal deer.

If one broadens the idea of management to include food plots, mineral supplements, and baiting, even when hunters on a property take nearly every legal deer that presents a safe shot opportunity, then lots of folks are managing to maximize harvest numbers rather than biggest antlers.

At the state level, a few states have implemented rules geared toward improving antler sizes, but many states have rules more geared toward maximizing hunter success rates which is also effectively equivalent to managing for meat harvest.

I know we can grow them because my uncle started putting out mineral blocks last year and the year before that the biggest buck he ever killed was a 13" 8 pt and this year they killed a 14" 8 pt so I know it works.

My cousin has 5 subscriptions to big buck magazines AND he is on DMAP. He also has some good outdoors channels on his satellite tv that most folks with basic cable don't get. He got me in touch with his DMAP biologist and we talked last night. Dude is an idiot, he said that the soil is what grows bucks haha! Deer don't eat dirt unless they come within 300 yards of my 300 ultra mag:smokin: Then he tried to tell me that that 7 pt we killed 'woulda been a good one next year' because it was a 2 1/2 year old deer. How the heck does he know when that deer was born? Idiot I tell ya. Then we was talking bout them little wood******s they got up on Kisatchie and I told him that we got Ivory-billed wood******s on our place. We see em every year, and when them suckers get to cuttin up those turkeys be gobblin'. He tried to say it was some pill eating wood****** or something but he is an idiot and why I don't trust them biologists and why I never goin DMAP

The more I think about it I think that big 8 we seen on camera at night didn't make it. The last two pics we got on camera, the deer looked spooked and then it run off. Guy at the feed store hunts right down the road from us and he said he seen a big black cat right at dusk dark cross his shooting lane. Said it had a long tail and cleared that trail in one hop:eek: He said they hear what sounds like a woman screaming all time down in the hollow and its probably that cat, cat probably got that big 8 we was seein. His brother in-law hunts on up the road in Starks and he got this pic on his camera:

that timber company went up from $2 an acre to $5 an acre last 2 years. Me and my one uncle used to lease it by ourselves but since they trying to put the little man out of the deer hunting business by upping them leases, we had to get my other uncle to get in with us. He don't hunt but two or three times a year, but anyways we ain't leaving this spot, we been here 8 years. If they keep going up on the rates we are gonna contact our representatives and senators. This isn't right:pissed:

My cousin said that one of them magazines he gets they got food plots so we put them in. Some dude at the co-op store said we needed to put some limes out in our dirt or something but I ain't ever seen a deer eating a lime and ain't no dang lime trees in the woods so he was just trying to sell me some lime trees I think

I am wanting to grow big bucks but they keep shooting all my deer I am growing

DuckButter - first, I understand what you are saying, and what you are trying to accomplish. But, if you want to accomplish that you better go somewhere else! 40 acres is not going to allow you to grow deer. And the mentality of "they are shooting all my deer" will only cause you an ulcer. Unless you high fence that 40 acres, you are going to sound like a flaming idiot trying to justify a program to grow deer. Like I told a guy one time that was pi$$3d we killed 2 deer in one day, unless you put a tag in their ear, a collar on their neck, and make an appointment at the vet's office - these ain't your deer!

I hope you were joking on calling the guy an idiot by saying soil type is what grows big deer. I don't think he meant actual soil but the mineral content of the soil in putting nutrients in what the deer eat. Soil rich in nutrients grow healthier plants that help grow bone structure in horns. Also it is not hard to age deer by pictures. Thats how you effectively manage a deer program by taking mature deer not just certain point and spread criteria. We try to only harvest 4 year or older deer (minus kids or people trying to kill their first deer).

Cant eat antlers. Im a predator and predators hunt for meat. If its legal it dies. No hesitation or questioning. I dont hunt to admire animals and watch them mature. I hunt to kill food.
If people want to grow and hunt bigger antlers thats good for them if thats what makes them happy. I dont think its right to expect others to change to suit your style.

I guess you are right , I just never thought of brown is down as "management". I haven't hunted deer in over 10 years but when I did brown was down so I'm not nocking that.

Naw he said soil is what grows the deer and then tried to tell me some other stuff he probably heard from one of those liberal professors that teach that type of stuff. He started using big words I didn't understand so I take that as an insult. I bet he don't even deer hunt. He don't know that I feed corn and rice bran year round and THAT is what grows the deer!
He mentioned trying to shoot deer that are old. Well deer don't get old in Allen Parish when your neighbor shoots everything that walks. I just want one of them bucks like they got on the lasportsman website

We like to put antlers on the outside of our camp and my wife likes em too she makes cool decorations with them we put above our fireplace. She made a candle holder out of a cowhorn spike I got 2 years ago. Can't do that with a doe. I try to only shoot one doe a year, does are for breeding, can't make babies by shooting the mommas

Beginning to think this thread is a joke. If it is not a joke, no use in trying.

Maybe shop around for an opening on a lease thats already under a management program? I know its not the same as having your own place but may be your best bet. Good luck DB

DB
I'm having a hard time grasping the lack of knowledge your showing with this thread.
From many previous posts and threads you seemed more knowledgeable of wildlife and outdoors.. Just my take.. But if this is a serious thread, I hope you get the info your looking for..

Ding Ding Ding... Winner Winner Chicken Dinner

I'm calling my Senator and Representatives too... Not being able to hunt at night is just not right... God said all creatures were for man's consumption... he didn't say only during the day... this is an outrage!!

DB be trollin

nice troll DB:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I think some ones got a hold on his account!
Rat dog wasn't even this ignorant!

:rotfl:

shoulda brought this to lasportsman:grinpimp:

I've seen so many things wrong with this thread that I would take a week to point them out. This is a joke of a discussion in terms of management.

Can't even believe it was suggested that "brown and down" is management. That's not management. Just call it what it is, and that is hunting for meat. If you kid yourself that that is management, you don't know anything about wildlife management.

Also the idea of anything being "mine" is laughable. There is a court case that set the precident for wildlife as a public trust. Wildlife is public property (unless its "W"s big lake trout :D).

Yes, managing deer on 40 acres is pretty much impossible. One deer wont call that home in most cases, much less a herd. I can't believe this thread has made it as long as it has.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2

DB i think you should get a few of us one day and flush that 40 acres with guns!!

He probably meant lime which is not a tree. It is an additive to stabilize soil and help plants grow in soil that lacks nutrients.

It would be pretty funny on Bayou Bucks too... haha

Dude sent me an email trying to sell me his special food plot mix:rotfl::grinpimp::rotfl:


http://www.louisianasportsman.com/lp...st_reports&sid=

"Brown is down" is essentially the same as deciding that the rules imposed by the state are sufficient for managing the herd in a given location without imposing additional restrictions.

Saying that "brown is down" isn't management is equivalent to saying that the governing authorities who set the rules are incompetent and have not properly applied management principles in setting the rules the way they have.

Do we really need to have additional rules at the local property level to say we are managing the herd? Is there nowhere in Louisiana where the state's rules are sufficient management?

Sorry, but I'm going to be that guy that brings this back up. If you think for one second that even half of what LDWF does is defined by science, you need to climb down out of that tree you're living in. LDWF, just like many wildlife agencies, is driven by politics. The reason the turkey season is set as it is is because of politics. Heck, isn't that what "W" has been preaching on the trout situation on big lake for the past 1,000,000 years?!?! :rotfl:

Yes, there are parts of the state that cannot support the deer limit that is set. It's called carrying capacity. Some habitats do not have the same CC as others. I've had this discussion before, and the guy made a point that I still don't agree with. He said that if area A doesn't hold as many deer as Area B, you won't kill as many deer there. So, whether that area has a 6 deer limit or not, it doesn't make a difference.

I call bologne on that. If you have 2 hunters on a property, and you've only got 10 deer frequenting that property, you could theoretically kill all those deer off, assuming the sex ratios are right.

Even if you do not kill them all off, you could drop that population to a certain level that keeps it from coming back. That is why some species have gone extinct.

Also, if you continually kill young animals, eventually, you are going to skew the population to older individuals, and eventually you will not have a population.

That is all theory and principle, but its not out of the realm of possibility. So yes, to answer your question, in some areas state regulations may not be sufficient. But then again, look at Texas. They establish different limits for different parts of the state, and it is because of differences in the deer herd and habitat.

And it really isn't any one's place to tell someone else what they can or cannot do on their property anyway.

Sure, one can always make a case that the management of a given species needs to be managed at a smaller geographical level. Louisiana currently has 10 different deer zones with varying regulations in each. It might be better for the herd or the hunters to have 20 zones or 100 zones, but the data and science required to quantify what is happening in the herd on that fine a scale is prohibitively expensive, and enforcement when the regulations are changing in 20 or 100 zones also becomes problematic. We certainly don't want 50 different zones and the legal requirement to apply for and pay for tags in each of four or five different firearms seasons that Colorado has.


Whitetail deer are in no danger of becoming extinct in Louisiana.

Certainly a possibility in some species, but not really a valid risk for whitetail deer in Louisiana. The sky is not falling.

And there are 10 different deer zones in Louisiana. The state does not just consider possible benefits, but also associated costs and challenges of smaller geographic divisions.

For once we agree. But many states are susceptible to pressure from QDM and big buck types and have imposed antler restrictions and other regulations whereby the state essential is doing this to many property owners.

There may be parts of the state where additional landowner restrictions are reasonable, but there are many areas where the current regulations by the state are sufficient. In these areas "brown is down" is sufficient management without additional rules.

So how do you think they set the hunting days in each zone? Are you admitting that there is no science behind the management? It sounds like it, which proves my point. I am not suggesting 20 or 50 different zones. What I am suggesting is that the limits in certain areas could be tweaked. Have a state wide of 6, but an area like area 10 may only have 4. What does limiting either sex days do if you get 10x the pressure on those days? Trust me, I've made hunts on public land during either sex season. Its ridiculous.

Missed my point again. I was not suggesting that they are. My point was merely that you could hunt them out of an area. I've heard of it happening. That can happen with anything. Pressure drives animals out.

So why did they break up the state this past season? Didn't they add an area or 2? I'm not getting your point of the "challenges of smaller geographic divisions". You aren't making more land for a game warden to cover. You are simply changing a rule. What costs? I'm really not seeing what you are arguing here.

I think there is science behind the management. The science estimates the number of deer and a desired range of harvest numbers for each sex. The regulations are designed to keep the actual harvest numbers within the range given whatever enforcement constraints and customer preferences are present.

You're nitpicking that you'd prefer a shift to controlling harvest numbers by reduced seasonal limits rather than reduced hunting days for a given zone compared with the rest of the state. You might be right. However, you might also consider that the state might have chosen to reduce the number of deer hunting days not just to reduce the harvest but to reduce conflicts with other types of hunting and not stretch enforcement personnel too thin in the coastal marsh and coastal prairie areas.

You used the word "extinct". Your clarification suggests you intended "extirpated" instead. Yes, it is possible, but whitetail deer are fairly resilient to leaking back in quickly if only driven out of small areas. Do you really think the 75 deer killed in Cameron and the 326 killed in Calcasieu in 2012-2013 presents a risk of killing 'em all in those parishes? What would your estimates be for sustainable harvest numbers for these parishes?

Depending on the regulations and season lengths, rule changes can either leave more or less land open for more or less days per year. Collecting and analyzing data separately for 20 zones is a lot more man hours than collecting and analyzing data for 10 zones. Effectively enforcing different rules in different areas is more expensive because complaints will multiply from citizens who are not sure which side of the boundary the event they think they saw was on, because hunters won't be sure which side they were on, and because law enforcement must now prove in court on which side of a boundary an alleged offense took place.

Lower limits are also harder to enforce (thus driving up costs or driving down effectiveness of enforcement). A shorter season in a given geography is easier to enforce because if you are found hunting or in the field in possession of a dead deer out of the given season, you are toast. If the limit is four rather than six per season, how does the game warden prove where the first five deer were killed when a hunter is found with his sixth deer in a zone that only allows four?

But all this is off in the weeds. You are venting about how the state needs to impose more restrictive regulations to protect the deer herd. Maybe, but consistent harvest numbers over 100,000 per year over many, many years suggest statewide sustainability.