Proposed new zones for 2016-2017 duck season
 

Attachment 96023

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/news/39564


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I really wish louisiana would get rid (shtican) the whole commission and let the biologist make the seasons and zones. Seems like everything used to tic along just find until duck hunting became a fad. Now all the new age facepainters barrel sticker "hunters" we have new zones and seasons every year cuz someone ain't Killin in their crawfish pond. Or someone saw 50 grayducks grass in their marsh blind week before Halloween. Let Larry do his work and set the seasons as he sees fit. No need in havin some rich politician that hunts the marsh dictate the whole states seasons.

Exactly my thoughts


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C'mon guys, how doesn't that look like a natural flyway to y'all?

Unfortunately will not happen. There will always be a commission, because the public will always want a voice in the decisions. How well do you think it would go over if biologists had the sole voice is decision-making?

As a biologist myself, I'm with you. Let the expert do his job. But it never ceases to amaze me at the number of people that will second guess my scientifically based opinion just because they think they know it better. And as long as that mindset avails, biologists will never be allowed to do their job without political input. The issue is not that the public has an input via the commission. The issue is that the commission has the ability to completely ignore the biologists' suggestions, so long as they abide by the federal regulations.

Welcome to louisiana.

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i would say, why not have a public vote on it every year...... buuuuuutttt, i see where that got us this year...

When you give the scientists too much power, they are tempted to bugger the science to suggest the rules that suit their own agenda.

Or have we forgotten the folly of federal management of red snapper?

We should remain committed to a republican process, as mandated by the US Constitution. If the scientists cannot convince the voters and their elected representatives (and the commission) that their suggested approach is necessary, then the republican approach SHOULD prevail.

If the biologists want more trust, they must be more open with their data and purported science.

http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=8674

From what Ive heard this proposed change was initiated by rice farmers who want more time to get their second crop out and many rice field hunters who are claiming more success in the later season. This quote was from someone on the Waterfowl study in response to an email I sent saying that I support any changes that are backed by empirical data and indisputable evidence backing the proposed changes instead of what may be a slighted public perception of a very localized area they hunt. In other words if theres no positive gain from it that can be proven by empirical data, then why is it even a discussion?

"There are no harvest data or bird habitat-use data or migration chronology data at such a small scale to validate the benefits of the proposed changes to hunters. Different hunters consider different things as "benefits" which is why hunters in the same place hunting at the same time often have different preferences. So although it sounds good to say that you will rely on sound, scientific data to make these decisions, it simply does not exist."

In response to me asking for their opinion if the changes would have a negative or positive impact.

"......Because the distribution of harvest among the weeks of the season 2001-2010 was very similar in the East zone and the SW and SE regions of the old west zone, I believe that a change in season dates of a week or 2 means virtually nothing to overall harvest over a series of years"......"Variation in weather patterns, habitat conditions both locally and to the north of us, and ration of juvenile/adult birds in the fall flight have much more impact on overall harvest than season dates moved a week earlier or later."


"I dont doubt there are differences in localized hunting success, but on larger scales, I think the focus on zone boundaries as a way to get season dates a week or 2 earlier or later is much ado about very little."

so the Big Lake 15 trout limit was a good one then? After all, "the scientists could not convince the voters and their elected representatives (and the commission) that their suggested approach is necessary"

http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=8674[/QUOTE]

This article probably should have said "We as citizens want to know the status of our wildlife in Louisiana so we can disagree with everything that comes out if its short of liberal limits and seasons." Because thats exactly what would happen. Kind of like when the proposed deer limit was going to be set at 4 but deer hunters threw a hissy fit and demanded 6 deer even though the data didnt back it. Annnnnnd now were seeing a decline in herd size. But thats another story for another time :)

The scientists did not try very hard in this case, and the policy makers listed more to the input from Texans than from their constituents. The LDWF scientists let Louisiana citizens down in this case, which has contrubuted to ongoing lack of trust.

Regardless of how much money they bring, lobbying groups from Texas should be ignored when setting policy in Louisiana.

Can't blame anyone but the commission. They were the deciding factor You can argue science until you are blue in the face but if those few members don't listen you can't do anything but throw your arms up in the air.

did everybody forget about the survey we all just took a couple months ago?

Yeah. But I can't imagine anyone with any sense voting For zones that look like this


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What exactly is wrong with them? Not being sarcastic. Serious question.

Commissioners need to go. They do not have public interest in mind. This could not be any more clear after the survey this year was completely ignored. Selfish individuals should not be in charge of making these decisions, especially when they go against recommendations of our head state waterfowl biologist and the general public. Makes me furious.

It is not unreasonable at all to have a vote every year taken by the general public. Everyone that buys a duck stamp the prior year should be able to vote on these issues. The state has all of the data on who buys stamps each year, so I don't know what would be so hard about going to some sort of system like that. Let Larry Reynolds do his job, make a few proposals each spring for the upcoming year, give us his recommendations in a little write up, and let the hunters vote. Politics should not play a role in these decisions, and that is all it is with the comissioners. Don't think there wasn't any "if you vote for this, then I'll vote for that" going on between commissioners this year.

The state is already spending money on surveys that are completely disregarded, so there is no reason why a statewide vote couldn't happen every year. Cost should not be an issue here.

Don't come back at me either with "seasons need to open earlier, look at the data." November 7th is the absolute earliest the coastal zone ever needs to open. Of course we will kill more birds early, they are uneducated. If we started hunting January first, we would still smash the ducks for the first 23-30 days. It's sad to think that there is a possibility that we would start on, lets say, November 1st on the years when the 1st is a Saturday.

I have hunted all 60 days of duck season for the last seven years, and I without a doubt see just as many birds in our marshes in January as I do in November. What months do our surveys show the highest numbers of waterfowl in Louisiana?

Let our head waterfowl biologist do his job. Take commissioners out of the picture, as there is absolutely no reason for them. Let the public vote, and if people still don't get their way, then they can at least live with the fact that politics and selfish individuals weren't involved.

the coastal zone boundary should not have anything to do with hwy 14, it should be all marsh south of the intercoastal canal... the east zone boundary should go no farther west than lafayette.



why should we even have a coastal zone? what in the heck was wrong with the old east and east zone?

i personally think the coastal zone is a load of bologna... we should just go back to the old east and west zone....


why do people always want to change s*** and make things complicated?

In my opinion. With the east zone being the size it is, it almost eliminates the need for different zones when one zone is that size.


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that third set of opening, split, and closing dates are just useless then.

My thoughts exactly. But now every Joe round the corner wants to either bounce a hen in october cuz that's when "their blind has birds" or someone else wants to bounce it in Feb cuz "they just getting here"

Sad thing about it all is there were 6 public meetings held all across the state and less than 100 people showed up. Anybody here go to one?

I've been to one before and it's about the same outcome as the survey. The commission is clearly the problem. Until they're gone we will have concurrent results.

Salty Cajun Super PAC? I volunteer to be your fearless leader.

You think I would go to one of those hot air conventions after I took the time to participate/submit the survey that they swore was so important some months ago, then was told by the surveyor that the main participants of the survey weren't the ones they wanted to hear from and then to add insult to injury they totally went against everyone's obvious opinions and preferences from the survey???? My parents are poor, I ain't rich, and I actually hunt waterfowl....a lot. With those 3 factors going against me it is clear that our opinion or input isn't wanted or worth a wooden nickel at those type of assemblies.


You know what I was doing during that meeting in LC. I was sweating my balls off, swatting mosquitos and trying to scratch out a few teal on an afternoon hunt. Just tell me the days I can hunt and I'll be there, don't lead me on and tell me my vote/opinion matters, it obviously doesn't.

How about when the scientists have already taken into account the public's opinion?

Because that was the case with Larry's recommendations. Public opinion was taken into account, and the Commission went against those recommendations. He's stated on more than one forum how he has received numerous questions about the purpose of the surveys after what happened. On numerous forums there have been issues with the way the seasons were set.

Plain and simple here MG, the Commission went against the better judgement of LDWF AND THE WISHES OF THE MAJORITY!!

So who has too much power here?

You want to keep arguing your little constitutional BS? Explain to me how its "constitutional" for a small group of men to just up and change something that the general public had input on, and had stated their opinions on?

Please do explain. I really, REALLY, REEEAAALLLLYYY can't WAIT to hear this!

And that's not even the most idiotic thing you posted. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!


You try and use this "article" to support your claim about scientists using data to support their own agendas. Robert J. Barham is a career politician/farmer that just so happens to have scientists working for him.

Put a real scientist in charge of a Wildlife agency, and then come talk to me about your issues with scientists. When you put a politician in charge of anything, things will be shady. That is just the nature of the beast.

Our land is literally ON the proposed coastal boundary. So the other side of the highway will be considered west zone, and ours coastal?

Same for the place I hunt....

I this the "Lacassine Flyway" needs its own season. The birds have their own flight patterns only found in the "Lacassine Flyway"

Sweet no split for you; burn em out!

No zones, 2 splits. Open as early as possible and close as late as possible. If we had 3-20 day splits we would have our 60 days. Those with early birds like the marsh would be happy and the timber hunters could hunt late. I think that's what Arkansas does. Most guys that are against this have leases in different zones and get to hunt more than 60 days. I have a lease in the coastal zone and the east zone but I would be in favor of no zones.

This.


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The only thing arkansas got right was the speck limit.

Maybe, but you can't hold them accountable for science they didn't see.

The science was presented to them in a very thorough set of recommendations by our states head waterfowl biologist.

Every time you post in this thread, you prove more and more that you don't know anything about this subject, and that you resort to the same cookie cutter argument every time a conversation involves LDWF.

The general consensus amongst duck hunters (you know, people that hold a stake in this debate, unlike you) is that the commission got this wrong. It was a selfish move by a handful of men that did not represent what hunters wanted. Most hunters were in agreement on the seasons that were proposed, it was viewed as a fair compromise. Some (southeast hunters) wanted later dates, while others (southwest) wanted earlier. Larry opted for what seemed like a reasonable compromise.

Do some research on the commission members and then try and convince me and everyone else here that things are as you suggest.

Do you think the dates are wrong or the zones are wrong? Honest question.

Sooooo who is on the commission??? Would like to hear the names from that gaggle.

I think the commission went against recommendations based on what the public (majority) wanted. I think there is this false idea that there are more ducks in early November that we aren't taking advantage of. While some may disagree with the effectiveness of the survey methods, going back to 2011 (which is a relatively short time period), the only decrease in total dabbler numbers (which is the only thing most guys are concerned with anyway) from November to December was in 2011.

If you look at last year, you had an estimate of nearly 100k more mallards in southwest Louisiana in December than in November. January numbers were always higher as well. Yet they wanted more November days. Even within a zone, ducks are not evenly distributed, but you can't change a season based on a small portion of a zone. That's not being a responsible manager or a good representative of what the public wants. These guys aren't elected by the public, but they should still keep the majority in mind when making decisions.

I believe the opposite is also true: there are those that believe that we are missing out on new ducks after the season has closed in January. Maybe there are some, but how anyone could believe that there are that many new ducks is beyond me. The same principle is working at both ends of the spectrum: hunting pressure. It seems like there are a lot of ducks early because there is no pressure, just like it seems as though there are a lot of new ducks at the end of the season because there is a lack of pressure.

The issue I could see this year is the above average temperature projections for the northern states and below average conditions down here. If you don't get freezing conditions early, or at all up north, the season down here will be good early and take a nose dive. Once you put pressure on the birds that are here, they are going to scatter, like they always do. The problem will arise when the migration is less than normal because of the warmer winter up north, and everything is freezing up down here.

I personally liked Larry's recommendations because it was based on what the scientists were seeing and public comment. Everyone might not have been happy, but it was based on public comment. What the commission did was based on a minority, just like what this proposed zone alignment appears to be based on. Look at the specklebelly season. They did it there as well. The majority wanted to go to 3 birds, but the commission cited hunting pressure as a reason for not doing that. So increasing the season by 7 days does not increase hunting pressure? :confused: Maybe by not being in the field as long every day, but come on. I wonder what the average time a field would be for a 3 bird limit vs a 2 bird limit. What would be the average time a field for the previous 74 day season vs the new 81 day season?

to make a long story short and answer your question: I think there is a lot left on the table with the zones. Under the current zone configuration, I think the seasons proposed by Larry gave everyone a fair shake. I think it's hard to make everyone happy under a 3 zone configuration, because each part of the state is different. The problem with the proposed zone configuration, in my book, is that it seems to be driven by special interest and not necessarily by biology. It may be fine now, but what happens when one of those interests changes their collective minds? Is a whole zone going to be bent to suit those?


http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/louisia...d-fisheries-co

You can read all about them here. I know a few of the guys, and they are good people. Just still can't get my head around that decision.

Both, the season dates this year are wrong and the proposed zones are wrong...


why do we even have a coastal zone to begin with? why did we do away with the old east and west zones? why cant we open the second weekend in november like it has been forever? why did we have to change something that didnt really need to change? and why in the hell did the commission go against the majority votes?

What is remarkable here is that 57% of the respondents to the 2015 survey were from the coastal zone, and 31% from the East Zone. Of all respondents, 65% indicated that they were either satisfied or very satisfied with the current zones.

32% indicated that they preferred the current zone format (wait, what? I thought 65% were either satisfied or very satisfied. Shouldn't this number be close to that one?).

34% indicated they had no preference in the zone alignment (I would suspect this 34% is composed of guys that hunt well within the boundaries of a given zone, and would not expect to see much of a change).

26% indicated a preference towards a 2 zone (North and Coastal) alignment.

Now read this closely: only 8% were in support of the zoning alignment that is currently proposed.

So why is it being pushed as the only alternative?

One disturbing issue I see is the lack of participation in the survey. Only 19.8% of those that were sent a survey responded. I suspect it will be even less in the future with the decisions that were made this year. People now know that it doesn't matter what they say when a handful of men can override it.

Proposed new zones for 2016-2017 duck season
 

Me personally, do not have a huge problem with opening early in the coastal. It could be a crap shoot, but maybe not. Who knows. I do think it was fair to , I guess you could say "meet in the middle" as the traditional dates were proposed and not favor what the swla marsh guys wanted. Although I'm ok with it, I agree that it was wrong favoring one side.
And the more I think about all the public comment on here , other places and the comments at the meetings that are held around the state (yes I attended one this year) it shows it is up to commission in the end and they don't care about the public. Larry is doing a great job for us, he can only do as much. And he has done a lot already.
I believe when they vote on this next zone change the public is allowed (I think) at that meeting. Curious to see how many will go and let the commission know what ya think.
Also, I still think there are a ton of people who have 0 clue that the zone boundaries and dates are even debatable . A lot are not informed

I hunt NE La and the zones and dates are fine with me. First split there is no water to hunt where I hunt. Only thing I will not like is getting SE La placed in the east zone and those guys griping in a year or two to change the dates. The dates are fine for us up there and the zones cant change but the dates can. I foresee a bunch of whining in a year or two from the SE La folks.

All LWFC Meetings are open to the public. If you look at the August Meeting Minutes, it was people representing major landowners in SWLA that made all of the comments about moving the opener up, or having more days in November and December.

I don't fault the land representatives for wanting what is best for their people, but I do fault the committee for taking the voices of the few and changing the season. There were even several charts included from past surveys that indicated later dates were preferred in the coastal zone.

If people are not happy with the dates and want earlier dates, they should be responding to the surveys. When the hunter surveys indicate that a later season is desired, and LDWF proposes the seasons as such, the commission should honor that.

I still don't understand where these guys came up with the idea that opening the first weekend of November was good. They keep claiming harvest data supports it. What harvest data? When has the season ever opened that early? Are they using the data that shows from Week 1 to Week 10 what the harvest is? How do they know that that will automatically correlate to better harvest numbers if you move up the season by 1 week? All you are doing is moving the pressure up. Survey numbers indicate more birds later in the season. I assume they do not believe the surveys are correct, and some of Courville's questions seem to be hinting at that.

Interestingly enough, the harvest numbers in SELA by week are pretty similar to SWLA, according to Larry's numbers. So I'm not sure why these guys want to be in the East Zone. I suppose they liked the later dates, and feel as though the coastal zone is going to continue to be set earlier than the other 2 zones.

Proposed new zones for 2016-2017 duck season
 

Yes that's what I was trying to get across^^^

[
QUOTE=Smalls;775284]All LWFC Meetings are open to the public. If you look at the August Meeting Minutes, it was people representing major landowners in SWLA that made all of the comments about moving the opener up, or having more days in November and December.

I don't fault the land representatives for wanting what is best for their people, but I do fault the committee for taking the voices of the few and changing the season. There were even several charts included from past surveys that indicated later dates were preferred in the coastal zone.



I still don't understand where these guys came up with the idea that opening the first weekend of November was good. They keep claiming harvest data supports it. What harvest data? When has the season ever opened that early? Are they using the data that shows from Week 1 to Week 10 what the harvest is? How do they know that that will automatically correlate to better harvest numbers if you move up the season by 1 week? All you are doing is moving the pressure up. Survey numbers indicate more birds later in the season. I assume they do not believe the surveys are correct, and some of Courville's questions seem to be hinting at that.

Smalls I believe we had an early opener several years back, because the youth hunt fell on nov 1st and 2nd. I'll have to find the dates in my log book. So we would've opened the second weekend in Nov that year, which is basically what we are doing this year. But, that could've been when it was still just east and west zone. I'll also try to find the email or quote Courville where he said they shoot all of their birds early. Last year we did not have a "decent day"after Jan 5th in our marsh. Unless you like chasing scaup.

Proposed new zones for 2016-2017 duck season
 

Well I screwed that multi quote thing up......here's the email I took a screen shot of why Courville wants early datesAttachment 96163

^^Well said^^

Another good read is on the refuge forum, under Louisiana flyway. Larry actually posts in that forum along with some other knowledgable guys. Take a look. I believe Rick hall started the thread called " here we go again"

Regardless, as a Commission, it is not their job to decide what is best for one part of the state based on the opinions of a few. IF the coastal zone were what it is in the current proposal, this would not be an issue. The fact is, the current proposal is like the direct result of the move by the commission.

The job of the commission is to take into account all of the resources and opinions and data. Commissioner Yakupzack admitted that the opinions of those present in August weighed on his decision. I am all for showing up and having your opinion heard, but the majority had already spoken, and had spoken for several years. The early opening was not preferred.

The bolded part of your quote is what I have an issue with. This suggests that Courville made the move for personal reasons, and not as a Commissioner. Again, IF the coastal zone were in the current proposed alignment, I don't think this would be as big an issue. But clearly, the current proposal is a response to this. The SELA coastal zone hunters and the rice field hunters must not have been happy with the season dates, which again speaks to the Commission going against the hunters and the LDWF recommendation.

I still don't understand what he thinks this will accomplish. Does he think that by hunting pretty much all of November the numbers will be that much better? Yeah, the data shows the first 3 weeks are better. Most hunters seem to agree that no matter where you put that, that is going to be the case. I have not seen anyone assume that by moving the season up a week that weeks 4 through 10 will be any better. And that is all I can assume Courville is assuming. I mean, there is nothing to support that. If there was, why didn't he cite it?

I hope my posts here have not led anyone to believe that I am against moving the dates up. It is not so much the dates being moved up, but the action taken that resulted in that, when it was clear that earlier dates was not what the majority wanted.

For the record, I'm happy for the Southwest Louisiana hunters who hope to have a good season because of this. If anything, I'm more concerned about weather putting a huge damper on this season than what the season dates do. If the weather forecasts are accurate, I suspect a long, cold, nasty, wet winter here, and a warmer winter up north are not going to be favorable for us as the season goes on. Maybe some of you older guys can recall what it was like back in 97-98, because its supposed to be a lot like that year 9at least on our end of the flyway).