Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I understand the scientific distinction between physiologically addicting and what you call "dependency forming" which is also often called psychologically addicting in the scientific papers.

The practical difference is how quickly the addiction can form. But once the addiction is formed, how much does it matter? Honey Badger was hooked on weed and could not quit even though the stakes were very high for him. He went from being a Heisman finalist and very promising LSU player to being a washed out loser in no time. His inability to quit smoking dope cost his LSU teammates, the LSU fans, and his own college football experience dearly.

Let's blame the evil weed, and not the idiot that made those decisions. Let's blame the guns and not the idiots running around killing people.

The fact is if he were hooked on alcohol he would be cool. Weed being illegal made him a washed up loser, not the affects that weed had on him as an athlete. The perception and ignant law in place by fear mongers like yourself is what made him a "loser".

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by Goooh

Let's blame the evil weed, and not the idiot that made those decisions. Let's blame the guns and not the idiots running around killing people.

The fact is if he were hooked on alcohol he would be cool. Weed being illegal made him a washed up loser, not the affects that weed had on him as an athlete. The perception and ignant law in place by fear mongers like yourself is what made him a "loser".

^^ ding ding ding

I'm sure Matthieu was a straight laced guy before weed. Church every Sunday and I heard he would go out of his way to help old ladies across the street.

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by Clampy

^^ ding ding ding

I'm sure Matthieu was a straight laced guy before weed. Church every Sunday and I heard he would go out of his way to help old ladies across the street.

On a side note, Willie Nelson has been "on weed" for 127 years and I'm pretty sure he has never done heroin.

The most educated guy on the site, and the high school drop out (both have never "done weed") have the same argument - the irony. Then you have us realists that fall somewhere in the middle, the place I like to call Awesome.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I understand the scientific distinction between physiologically addicting and what you call "dependency forming" which is also often called psychologically addicting in the scientific papers.

The practical difference is how quickly the addiction can form. But once the addiction is formed, how much does it matter? Honey Badger was hooked on weed and could not quit even though the stakes were very high for him. He went from being a Heisman finalist and very promising LSU player to being a washed out loser in no time. His inability to quit smoking dope cost his LSU teammates, the LSU fans, and his own college football experience dearly.

I have no doubt that you clearly understand the distinctions, I chose to lay them out in plain terms for others who are showing that they are not sure about what the differences are between the two.

I can't speak to the honey badger situation because i haven't kept up with it. But i do know that you can be dependant on many things to an extent that you cause detriment to your own life. Gambling, Fishing, Hunting as well as many other things have caused plenty of headaches to plenty of people, That does not constitute a valid reason for imposing criminal / civil / and moral penalties on the acts of gambling, fishing, hunting... etc...

On a side note, I welcome your return to a facts based open discussion without personal attacks. It am happy to return to that between us as well.

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

And it destroys you, just like heroin - use it once, next thing you know you will be blowing drug dealers for your next fix and developing sores all over your body, shortly followed by Hep and HIV.

Gtfo

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"In the USA and Australia, about 10% of those who ever use cannabis become daily users, and another 20–30% use the drug weekly."- Adverse effects of cannabis

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Goooh

The fact is if he were hooked on alcohol he would be cool. Weed being illegal made him a washed up loser, not the affects that weed had on him as an athlete.

Les Miles kicked Honey Badger off of the team for breaking team rules long before Honey Badger had any trouble with the law over his weed habit.

Are you saying the coach of a college football team can't have and enforce the rules he sees necessary for maintaining order and discipline?

Are you saying that college football players should have a "right" to smoke weed even if their schools, coaches, and the NCAA disagree?

I would think the libertarian position would be that coaches, institutions, and employers still should have the right to make and enforce the rules they deem necessary, even if cannabis is legalized. Have I misunderstood?

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Goooh

And it destroys you, just like heroin - use it once, next thing you know you will be blowing drug dealers for your next fix and developing sores all over your body, shortly followed by Hep and HIV.

Gtfo

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

[MathGeek]

Get high, get stupid, get AIDS.

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

No argument here, This study basically shows scientifically that THC in cannabis causes people to get high (okay......) it also goes on to state that other cannabinoids compounds remain in the system for up to the 4-5 days listed. It's these other pharmacological compound that medical science is most interested in for their curative functions. However the non THC parts of cannabis do not have mind altering properties. So it really does not matter if they stay in your body for 4-5 days.

The compound THC may or may not stay in your body for 4-5 days (i'm not sure if it does or not) However it's high inducing ability most certainly does not stay in the body for that time period.

That's probably a good thing for drug dealers though, They would never be able to make money on a drug that kept people high for 4-5 days.

Earlier in this discussion we went into some depth on the prospective pharmacological benefits of these other cannabinoids.

Cannabis still remains as a non addictive substance which when consumed can cause a person to become high. However the person remains in complete control of their mind and body in making the decision to become high.

That means cannabis is no different than fishing / hunting / etc. it does not even have the physical addiction cycle of alcohol / nicotine. It's only commonality is that it promotes dependance.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

The courtesy levels on both sides of this argument have been less than spectacular as of late.

How about we lead the charge to change it back to a scientific discussion, rather than muddle the water by continuing the cycle of personal attacks?

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Get high, get stupid, get AIDS.

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

Does the science that we have gone over and you have objectively agreed to mean nothing to you?

I am 100% certain that you are completely aware that this is not a logical argument that you have just made, and am also 100% sure that it is purely an emotional one.

One could just have easily say "She ate Peanut butter, it made her happy, a serial killer then killed her because he hated happy people"

You can't have it both ways MG.... what is it going to be... Logic or Emotion?

[Clampy]

Check this out. Acting DEA head gets grilled.
http://t.co/IXNzkf25yz

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

I can go cry to the owner and have the thread closed if it doesn't go the way I wanted.

Tell me how you know Miss is a lady? All his/her posts are on this thread, please let me know....

Interesting.

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"Cannabis users seeking help to stop report withdrawal symptoms that include anxiety, insomnia, appetite disturbance, and depression. Over the past 20 years, increasing numbers of people have sought help in the USA, Europe, and Australia to stop using cannabis."-Adverse health effects of non-medical cannabis use

withdrawal- 1. Discontinuation of the use of an addictive substance 2.The physiological and mental readjustment that accompanies such discontinuation

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"In the USA and Australia, about 10% of those who ever use cannabis become daily users, and another 20–30% use the drug weekly."- Adverse effects of cannabis

okay, but recreational use of a drug with no demonstrable negative effects, as well as a few possible health benefits are in and of itself not an adverse effect of cannabis.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Cannabis users seeking help to stop report withdrawal symptoms that include anxiety, insomnia, appetite disturbance, and depression. Over the past 20 years, increasing numbers of people have sought help in the USA, Europe, and Australia to stop using cannabis."-Adverse health effects of non-medical cannabis use

withdrawal- 1. Discontinuation of the use of an addictive substance 2.The physiological and mental readjustment that accompanies such discontinuation

all the same things that can occur when any thing that someone builds a dependancy on is taken away.

But the FACT remains that cannabis is not an addictive substance.

[Clampy]

Active THC is out of blood in 7-8 hrs. Stays in fat cells longer but it is metabolized and metabolites are not psychoactive.

This really is easy.

[southern151]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Cannabis users seeking help to stop report withdrawal symptoms that include anxiety, insomnia, appetite disturbance, and depression. Over the past 20 years, increasing numbers of people have sought help in the USA, Europe, and Australia to stop using cannabis."-Adverse health effects of non-medical cannabis use

withdrawal- 1. Discontinuation of the use of an addictive substance 2.The physiological and mental readjustment that accompanies such discontinuation

You oughta see me when I don't have my coffee in the morning!

Would coffee fall under the same addiction problems? If so, shouldn't it be illegal?