Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

DUDE!!!!

why you gotta egg him on... Now he's going to have the moral fuel to go another 200 responses..

Because its funny to me.
I wonder if Gaftop Slime was found out to be psychoactive ? What would be his stance on it ?
We would undoubtedly have to kill all gafttops. Drug dealers of the fish world !


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[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by Clampy

Because its funny to me.
I wonder if Gaftop Slime was found out to be psychoactive ? What would be his stance on it ?
We would undoubtedly have to kill all gafttops. Drug dealers of the fish world !


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Man, it's a hard world out there. Poor brother Trout and uncle Red getting chased by all dem fishermans! Why's the man wan't to take away there only form of recreation... Legalize the Slime!

[Clampy]

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[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Legalization of cannabis at the federal level would require repeal of the Controlled Substances Act, which in turn would require the United States to withdraw from the international treaty known as the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs.

This makes the question much bigger than "should marijuana be legal" and makes it necessary to consider bigger questions such as:

"Should the United States be unilaterally withdrawing from longstanding obligations under international treaties?"

I would hate for the US to set such an example, lest other nations start unilaterally withdrawing from their longstanding treaty obligations to the United States.

Is it wise to give other nations carte blanche to back out of their treaty obligations in matters such as trade, food safety, extradition, peace, environmental issues, arms inspections, nuclear reductions, etc.?

Originally Posted by Clampy

Cannabis could easily be rescheduled and probably de-scheduled With a executive order.
Once rescheduled it would not meet the priority of the controlled substances act. Effectively removing it and keeping the CSA in place and the treaties in place.

Rescheduling and making it a non priority for law enforcement. That would be a good start. If there is nothing in it for them like asset forfeiture and keeping bodies in the prison industrial complex they wouldn't even bother. That would be a big step forward.


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You might want to check your facts. Cannabis is a Schedule 1 substance, but making it legal for recreational use under the treaty is not as simple as de/rescheduling it. The treaty provisions explicitly require cannabis production, possession, and use all to be illegal, and the treaty provisions also explicitly require enforcement of prohibitions on cultivation.

It is possible that cannabis could be rescheduled for medical uses while complying with the treaty provisions, but this would require much more than an executive order, it would require cooperation and willingness from the Secretary for Health and Human Services, the DEA, the FDA, and the President. And even if rescheduled for medical uses, the binding treaty requires all cannabis cultivation to take place under the strict oversight of a single government agency, which takes possession and control of the entire crop every year. In the US, the National Institute for Drug Abuse fulfills that function.

Constitutional separation of powers and the due process clause do not permit the executive branch to abrogate treaties and laws passed by Congress to codify treaty provisions. Due process of both legislative and executive branches is necessary to put treaty provisions and laws in place, and due process of both legislative and executive branches is needed to change the law. Even so, it would still be unwise for the US to act unilaterally without reaching new agreements with international partners, since these partners reasonably expect the US to live up to duly agreed upon treaty stipulations.

If the US starts unilaterally breaking treaties due to popular (internal) opinion, other nations will think twice before complying with existing treaties and making new treaties. This could have a negative impact on trade, food safety, extradition, peace, environmental issues, arms inspections, nuclear reductions, etc.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

You might want to check your facts. Cannabis is a Schedule 1 substance, but making it legal for recreational use under the treaty is not as simple as de/rescheduling it. The treaty provisions explicitly require cannabis production, possession, and use all to be illegal, and the treaty provisions also explicitly require enforcement of prohibitions on cultivation.

It is possible that cannabis could be rescheduled for medical uses while complying with the treaty provisions, but this would require much more than an executive order, it would require cooperation and willingness from the Secretary for Health and Human Services, the DEA, the FDA, and the President. And even if rescheduled for medical uses, the binding treaty requires all cannabis cultivation to take place under the strict oversight of a single government agency, which takes possession and control of the entire crop every year. In the US, the National Institute for Drug Abuse fulfills that function.

Constitutional separation of powers and the due process clause do not permit the executive branch to abrogate treaties and laws passed by Congress to codify treaty provisions. Due process of both legislative and executive branches is necessary to put treaty provisions and laws in place, and due process of both legislative and executive branches is needed to change the law. Even so, it would still be unwise for the US to act unilaterally without reaching new agreements with international partners, since these partners reasonably expect the US to live up to duly agreed upon treaty stipulations.

If the US starts unilaterally breaking treaties due to popular (internal) opinion, other nations will think twice before complying with existing treaties and making new treaties. This could have a negative impact on trade, food safety, extradition, peace, environmental issues, arms inspections, nuclear reductions, etc.

This fantasy world which you live in where the check's and balances system actually still works and is in place is very cute....

You are well aware that effectively all euro countries have "decriminalized" cannabis use on a personal scale, Most euro nations handle it with either small fines (similar to what we give people here for minor speeding infractions) or "warning" tickets. A couple have gone a bit further, some a bit less.

The following CBS article discusses this, and refers to studies showing that the US has the highest rates of drug abuse worldwide. http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-4222322.html

I have no doubt that your also well aware that we lead the entire world in percentage of population that we imprison. It is easily documentable to show that we imprison our citizens at a rate 5-10 times higher than any other civilized country.

There couldn't be any chance that the extraordinarily stupid method in which we have waged our "war on drugs" could have anything to do with that huh?

I sincerely doubt that any international coalition would object to the US taking a more reasonable approach in how it deals with the drug trade.


I don't doubt that your correct in guessing that there probably won't be meaningful change in 1 discussion, The Alcohol, Tobacco, Pharma, and Prison lobbys have undoubtably bought of more than enough folks to make sure nothing sensible is going to happen.

[Clampy]

Darn it Ace! We imprison those adults to save the kids and dogs. Don't you get it man. We must continue to fight the
"War on ... Certain American Citizens using non alcoholic , non pharmaceutical , tobacco free
Drugs"


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[duckman1911]

And the never ending battle continues no matter what forum you go to.lol. This subject has about a million miles of gray area and no resolution will ever be found that suits everyone. For the most part I think drugs should be legal (dont do any of them and have no plans to) within certain guidelines. Me personaly I dont care if mom and dad meth themselves out as long as their kids have food on the table. And a good place to live and all their needs are met. I drink and I smoke but dont smoke around my kids and i dont get behind the wheel after i've had a few. It comes down to a moral and concious decision on the adults part. That starts a whole other libertarian debate on whether the police are allowed to police people engaged in a legal activity. Its a no win situation

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

And the never ending battle continues no matter what forum you go to.lol. This subject has about a million miles of gray area and no resolution will ever be found that suits everyone. For the most part I think drugs should be legal (dont do any of them and have no plans to) within certain guidelines. Me personaly I dont care if mom and dad meth themselves out as long as their kids have food on the table. And a good place to live and all their needs are met. I drink and I smoke but dont smoke around my kids and i dont get behind the wheel after i've had a few. It comes down to a moral and concious decision on the adults part. That starts a whole other libertarian debate on whether the police are allowed to police people engaged in a legal activity. Its a no win situation

Well heck, you sound like a reasonable fellow to me.

[Average Fisherman]

And the Feds just released a statement saying they will respect states rights and allow these laws to go into effect in Colorado and Washington.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by Average Fisherman

And the Feds just released a statement saying they will respect states rights and allow these laws to go into effect in Colorado and Washington.

A small step to be sure, but at least it's one in the correct direction.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2013/A...3-opa-974.html

[Clampy]

Oh yeah. This is good news. Let the dominos fall !!


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[Goooh]

Many things swinging toward the libertarian side of life, this is just another one.

The tide has never been so strong for a libertarian govt Shift IMO. Time to stop worrying about who's kissing who, what time we buy alcohol, who's smoking pot, and start worrying about the budget and real foreign policy that makes sense!!!!!

Get out of people's homes and out of people's wallets, and lets get people in office that will get real stuff done!

Justice and liberty are meant for ALL in this country, not just those that tout a holier than thou Christian attitude. The God I know doesn't give a damn about smoking or drinking if in moderation, he wants you to believe in him as the creator and have a good heart, and believe his son is the man that changed time. Bless others and understand them, no matter their religious stance, color, background, interests or beliefs.



Worry about yourself, if I ain't hurtin you then go about your business. My God will judge me just as he will you, find something better to do with your time.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1377814678.305925.jpg

TANSTAAFL


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[Goooh]

Britain just had a vote for whether or not they would intervene, the majority was for staying out of it.


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[mriguy]

Originally Posted by Goooh

Many things swinging toward the libertarian side of life, this is just another one.

The tide has never been so strong for a libertarian govt Shift IMO. Time to stop worrying about who's kissing who, what time we buy alcohol, who's smoking pot, and start worrying about the budget and real foreign policy that makes sense!!!!!

Get out of people's homes and out of people's wallets, and lets get people in office that will get real stuff done!

Justice and liberty are meant for ALL in this country, not just those that tout a holier than thou Christian attitude. The God I know doesn't give a damn about smoking or drinking if in moderation, he wants you to believe in him as the creator and have a good heart, and believe his son is the man that changed time. Bless others and understand them, no matter their religious stance, color, background, interests or beliefs.



Worry about yourself, if I ain't hurtin you then go about your business. My God will judge me just as he will you, find something better to do with your time.

Attachment 55184

TANSTAAFL


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Great post Goooh

[Average Fisherman]

Dang Goooh. Excellent post. That just about sums up my view on things.

[BassAssasin]

Originally Posted by Average Fisherman

And the Feds just released a statement saying they will respect states rights and allow these laws to go into effect in Colorado and Washington.

Wish they would respect states rights on most stuff. Giving more power back to the state would be a step in the right direction.

[Average Fisherman]

Indeed.

[MathGeek]

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Weed infused beef.... Hmmmmm this might have potential. Could probably get it to grade out higher than Kobe Waygu....

[southern151]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

WTH?! Did you just use a "meme?!"