Louisiana Sportsmans Coalition

[evis102]

Navigable has nothing to do with it but I could argue that if it can float a log it could be used for commerce. It is all about the ebb and flow of the tide. Mississippi has a very good grasp of the concept of tidal waters:

PUBLIC TRUST TIDELANDS
Public Trust Tidelands and submerged lands are lands lying under waters naturally subject to tidal influence. The inland boundary is the line of mean high tide and the seaward boundary is the State boundary, three miles south of the barrier islands. Public Trust Tidelands are owned by the State in trust for all the people of Mississippi. The Secretary of State is the trustee of this great public trust.

It is the policy of the State of Mississippi to favor the preservation of the natural state of the public trust tidelands and their ecosystems and to prevent the despoliation and destruction of them, except where a specific alteration would serve a higher public interest in compliance with the public purposes of the trust. Public Trust Tidelands are managed with a view towards preservation. Revenues from the Tidelands are deposited into the Tidelands Fund and disbursed to the Department of Marine Resources for programs and projects relating to conservation, reclamation, preservation, acquisition, education and enhancement of public access to the tidelands.

[evis102]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

You CAN own tidal marsh in Louisiana. But this coalition wants to make all tidal navigable waters open to the public. Your argument will then be what is navigable. Navigable by what?

The other question would be what do you consider marsh? Land or water?

You own the water bottom. Not the water or anything swimming in it. So basically you have a public resource sitting on top of your land that the public can not access.

[wishin i was fishin]

Public Trust Doctrine

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0eoKRr7SVH9g-A


Read this and you will have a better understanding of definitions.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by evis102

Navigable has nothing to do with it but I could argue that if it can float a log it could be used for commerce. It is all about the ebb and flow of the tide. Mississippi has a very good grasp of the concept of tidal waters:

PUBLIC TRUST TIDELANDS
Public Trust Tidelands and submerged lands are lands lying under waters naturally subject to tidal influence. The inland boundary is the line of mean high tide and the seaward boundary is the State boundary, three miles south of the barrier islands. Public Trust Tidelands are owned by the State in trust for all the people of Mississippi. The Secretary of State is the trustee of this great public trust.

It is the policy of the State of Mississippi to favor the preservation of the natural state of the public trust tidelands and their ecosystems and to prevent the despoliation and destruction of them, except where a specific alteration would serve a higher public interest in compliance with the public purposes of the trust. Public Trust Tidelands are managed with a view towards preservation. Revenues from the Tidelands are deposited into the Tidelands Fund and disbursed to the Department of Marine Resources for programs and projects relating to conservation, reclamation, preservation, acquisition, education and enhancement of public access to the tidelands.

This is citing water and land under the water i.e. water bottoms. Where you are going to run into problems is your definition of marsh.

[Juciy]

I feel the pain the landowners and lease holders are having. But I have always had an issue with the trash pile that Louisiana has become. Oil companies have come in and left destruction in its path. Now the want to lease out tidal land that in my opinion should be owned by citizens of the state. Louisiana should be the outdoor recreational capital of the US, but frankly many people will not come here due to the crime, trashy bayous, and terrible coastal facilities. We don't even have decent boat landings that are free to the public. If you go to others states it's a totally different situation.

You can't own the water of the rights to it. If you believe that water can be owned drink a glass full and wait an hour.


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[evis102]

United States Constitution - Freedom of navigation and the public’s right to use rivers are guaranteed by the Commerce Clause. The congressional Act admitting States to the Union requires that “all the navigable waters within said State shall be common highways and forever free.”

It could be argued that at one time or other any water deep enough to float a pirogue was used for trade and travel.

[wishin i was fishin]

Just a screenshot of one of the many cases sited in the Land Trust Doctrine.

this battle has been ongoing back into the late 1800s.

According to the LTD, tidal overflow lands are owned by the state by inherent sovereignty.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by evis102

United States Constitution - Freedom of navigation and the public?s right to use rivers are guaranteed by the Commerce Clause. The congressional Act admitting States to the Union requires that ?all the navigable waters within said State shall be common highways and forever free.?

It could be argued that at one time or other any water deep enough to float a pirogue was used for trade and travel.

Navigation and commerce does not mean you can hunt/fish there. Commerce means trade. Think of it as a public road going through your property. Anyone can travel down that road but you can't get out the vehicle me and shoot a deer off the side of the road

There was a case up in northeast Louisiana (Gassoway Lake) that the federjudge ruled for the landowner and he cited the public trust doctrine pertaining to commerce as well. This lake was an old oxbow of the MS River and when the river would flood, it was then "navigable" and you could get to this lake many people got arrested and took it to court. Basically the rules were written that you were allowed to be in the floodwaters but only to moor overnight and/or dry your nets but weren't allowed to hunt or fish there.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by wishin i was fishin

Just a screenshot of one of the many cases sited in the Land Trust Doctrine.

this battle has been ongoing back into the late 1800s.

According to the LTD, tidal overflow lands are owned by the state by inherent sovereignty.

Will dig into this a little later but if this Act is considering all lowlands as state owned then basically a third of the state would be state owned water bottoms. When you look at a map of ownership from the Office of State Lands that isn't the case. Very possible that the state sold a lot of the water bottoms? Or are apache, Miami corps, Biloxi, the rockafellers, and a thousand others that own the water bottoms on coastal Louisiana just squatting on it? Or did the state sell it to them?

[evis102]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Navigation and commerce does not mean you can hunt/fish there. Commerce means trade. Think of it as a public road going through your property. Anyone can travel down that road but you can't get out the vehicle me and shoot a deer off the side of the road

There was a case up in northeast Louisiana (Gassoway Lake) that the federjudge ruled for the landowner and he cited the public trust doctrine pertaining to commerce as well. This lake was an old oxbow of the MS River and when the river would flood, it was then "navigable" and you could get to this lake many people got arrested and took it to court. Basically the rules were written that you were allowed to be in the floodwaters but only to moor overnight and/or dry your nets but weren't allowed to hunt or fish there.

That case was about mean high-water mark and river flooding. You are right I can't stop in the middle of a bayou and shoot a deer on your land. I can stop my boat, throw out some decoys and shoot ducks.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by evis102

That case was about mean high-water mark and river flooding. You are right I can't stop in the middle of a bayou and shoot a deer on your land. I can stop my boat, throw out some decoys and shoot ducks.

If it's natural bayou, yes you can Not on a manmade dead end canal surrounded by private land or on flooded private land or a mud motor trail

[evis102]

At the end of the day only one of the following statements can be true.

1. Current Louisiana law is right and the prior court judgments supporting there case will stand the test of farther litigation. Meaning that the other 20 coastal states are wrong and the many hundreds of supporting court judgments are incorrect rulings.

2. The other 20 coastal states are right and have many hundreds of supporting court rulings to support them. Meaning Louisiana is wrong and the publics right to tidal waters is being usurped by special interest.


Louisiana's wetlands today represent up to 40% of the wetlands of the continental United States and about 75% of that is private. So that means 30% of the wetlands of the continental United States are not only private but all in the same state. That is going to be very hard to justify if it ever gets to court.