Will you continue to Support CCA?

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Agreed. Too bad you don't want to apply the same scientific standards to tripletail that you wanted for trout.

But I do And until that meeting coming up I am going to withhold judgement because all this is speculation until we hear their side of the argument.


And I thought this thread died a week ago, but what in the world is this?

I disagree strongly on two counts:

1. Lead projectiles are protected by RKBA (2nd amendment). When the science demonstrates a sound need, lead projectiles can reasonably be regulated for hunting purposes, but non-hunting bans of lead projectiles has RKBA ramifications.

The right to bear arms includes lead projectiles? I don't think it does, but the original discussion was about pellets not bullets, so I will stay on that subject. BUT, there was a study at Fort Polk looking at deer stomach contents and a large majority of them contained lead projectiles. This was a study by a student under my major professor. Deer can feed by sight, so they know what they are picking up, and it appeared by the stomach contents that some of these deer were actively seeking out the lead projectiles I am not a chemist but it has something to do about oxidation of lead, etc. You will not find this study published because it wasn't and will not be, DoD shut it down

2. I guess it is a reasonable inference that lead shot might be ingested and create a non-zero mortality in game birds. But as I described previously, the science should be able to show significant population level effects from a given practice before that practice is criminalized. Have scientific studies been published showing significant population level effects of lead shot in midwestern cornfields?

Again, this is where the lines are a little blurred and depends on what you consider 'acceptable mortality'. Waterfowl to this very day 20+ years after banning of lead shot, still die due to lead shot on Catahoula Lake. There are gizzard studies that are ongoing from Catahoula Lake waterfowl and many of them contain lead shot.
There are also studies with doves and lead shot, think this is at Sandy Hollow WMA.
Doves are short-lived birds so you could assume that the lead that they pick up in their relatively short lifespan probably does not do too much negative on them. However, the critters that feed upon them....
And the big 'elephant in the room' are the other songbirds that are picking up this lead. They are protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, so now there are big ramifications. If there are in fact songbirds or other non-target birds dying from lead, then how many dying is to much? I don't know, but when its a big 'warm and fuzzy' species or a well known symbolic species dying such as a bald eagle, people get up in arms. OR, the California condor, then you have endangered species act coming into play.

Here is a scenario:

20 people are hunting a dove field and they all shoot 4 boxes of shells (not unreasonable)

And for each box of shells, there are 2 lbs of lead in each box
(I have no idea how much lead is in a box of shells, but I know lead is the bulk of the weight and lets just say a box of shells weighs 3 lbs, seems reasonable)
So basically, each hunter just scattered 8 POUNDS of lead pellets on the field. Multiply that by 20 and you have 160 pounds of lead pellets scattered in that field on opening day of dove season. You see where this is going? It adds up quick.
Imagine if you went up to someone with 160 lbs of lead pellets and told them you were going to spread them across his land You would get shot.

Lead never goes away, and lets call it what it is - POISON. It was outlawed in paint because of this as well.

So Cliff's notes - lead is bad, birds die from it 20+ years out, it doesn't go away, and I am not advocating a ban on lead shot but if it did come around I can definitely understand why it did and will gladly shoot steel at doves, woodcock, etc.

and YES I will continue to support CCA and other conservation organizations because they are on our side