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  #101  
Old 08-19-2013, 10:32 PM
Andy C Andy C is offline
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Originally Posted by bgizzle View Post
Pick your poison kinda thing huh? That's good info. Never thought of it that way
Study it when i was at school college there and that's what it comes down to!!! Cause someone wants to build a house on the "river" and get it washed away. And gripe about it till gov. Dose something about it!!! Look at the barrier islands ! Not just in La. But everwhere the have Tryed controling flood water, they dang near gone!! Without them the marsh dies wiers or not!!!!
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  #102  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:41 AM
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If people don't believe that the land in red is not there, then we can't even have this conversation anymore, may as well let the wiers go, kill it all, we may as well have some good fishing for a few more years amiritie


You guys who hunt Sabine are going to honestly say that land has NOT been decreasing since you have been hunting back there?
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  #103  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by "W" View Post
Right?? West side looks better than East side with weirs?

Whats up with that??
There are several factors in play since the dredging of the ship channel that make the marshes on the SE area of Big Lake more susceptible to saltwater intrusion than the marshes on the S side of West Cove.

Probably the biggest factor is the fact that the dredging has given salt water a wide open path to the SE corner of Big Lake, but has added a significant barrier to the path to West Cove. Note that now there is both the 40 ft deep 400 ft wide ship channel and the original Calcasieu river channel leading bringing salt water into the SE part of Big Lake. The open part of the ship channel into the SE part of Big Lake is several miles long. In contrast, the dredged material was used to build up a barrier between the ship channel and West Cove, and there are only a couple openings a few hundred yards wide for the salt water from the ship channel to flow into West Cove. Recent enhancements (the three new weirs) to the water control structures in West Cove were more needed to improve flow of freshwater out of the marshes than to reduce flow of salt water back into the marshes surrounding West Cove.

The SE part of Big Lake is also subject to greater wave action and larger wind driven tidal flows owing to the greater fetch on the east side of the lake by comparison with West Cove. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography)
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  #104  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:47 AM
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No way...cant be...duck BUTTer and Smalls know every square inch of our estuary
W, I do field surveys all the time and before I step foot out on the property I look at aerial photos, historic maps, topo maps, and soil maps. You can look at a soil map and pretty much know whats going to be there before you step foot onto the property. Just by looking at a soils map I can tell you the plants that will be there and with the plants come the animals. You then go and 'ground truth' the area to document what is out there. Its not rocket surgery.
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  #105  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:47 AM
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There are several factors in play since the dredging of the ship channel that make the marshes on the SE area of Big Lake more susceptible to saltwater intrusion than the marshes on the S side of West Cove.

Probably the biggest factor is the fact that the dredging has given salt water a wide open path to the SE corner of Big Lake, but has added a significant barrier to the path to West Cove. Note that now there is both the 40 ft deep 400 ft wide ship channel and the original Calcasieu river channel leading bringing salt water into the SE part of Big Lake. The open part of the ship channel into the SE part of Big Lake is several miles long. In contrast, the dredged material was used to build up a barrier between the ship channel and West Cove, and there are only a couple openings a few hundred yards wide for the salt water from the ship channel to flow into West Cove. Recent enhancements (the three new weirs) to the water control structures in West Cove were more needed to improve flow of freshwater out of the marshes than to reduce flow of salt water back into the marshes surrounding West Cove.

The SE part of Big Lake is also subject to greater wave action and larger wind driven tidal flows owing to the greater fetch on the east side of the lake by comparison with West Cove. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography)

MG, that red is WRONG, that land is THERE! These maps are all LIES, LIES I tell you
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  #106  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Duck Butter View Post
W, I do field surveys all the time and before I step foot out on the property I look at aerial photos, historic maps, topo maps, and soil maps. You can look at a soil map and pretty much know whats going to be there before you step foot onto the property. Just by looking at a soils map I can tell you the plants that will be there and with the plants come the animals. You then go and 'ground truth' the area to document what is out there. Its not rocket surgery.
One of those maps shows land across the ship channel in 1992..CMON man
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  #107  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:55 AM
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One of those maps shows land across the ship channel in 1992..CMON man

Where do you see that?
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  #108  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:56 AM
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Tell me more about this lost marsh land in the ship channel?? Lmao
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  #109  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:02 AM
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Tell me more about this lost marsh land in the ship channel?? Lmao
Well it actually previously was land if you look that is taking into account from 1932. There was NO ship channel there in 1932, there was LAND. So, that land is gone, it may be a little misleading, but its true, that land is not there anymore therefore the reason its red.

I have a state map from 1872 right here on my desk and wish I could link that. Looked a LOT different back then
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  #110  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:07 AM
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I'm not for or against weirs, but as far as Sabine Refuge is concerned, that land loss was pretty much all from Rita. Weirs or no weirs, that land is lost regardless. I also believe that some of the vegetation is starting to come back, just like it has for the past hundreds of hurricanes.

I also have a hard time believing that the east side of Sabine Lake is less prone to saltwater intrusion. There is no way there is a major difference in salinity on the southeastern bank of Sabine Lake than there is on the southeastern bank of Big Lake.

To me, it seems that it's a lose lose situation. Put up weirs and keep mother nature from running her course but save the marsh, or no weirs and let mother nature have her way but maybe lose some marsh.
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  #111  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:17 AM
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I got this straight off Google Earth from May of this year (2013). Just imagine that black water as being red and you have the same thing
I drew in those little yellow things for reference
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File Type: jpg big.jpg (79.8 KB, 190 views)
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  #112  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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Big Lake 1872
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  #113  
Old 08-20-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by noodle creek View Post
I'm not for or against weirs, but as far as Sabine Refuge is concerned, that land loss was pretty much all from Rita. Weirs or no weirs, that land is lost regardless. I also believe that some of the vegetation is starting to come back, just like it has for the past hundreds of hurricanes.

I also have a hard time believing that the east side of Sabine Lake is less prone to saltwater intrusion. There is no way there is a major difference in salinity on the southeastern bank of Sabine Lake than there is on the southeastern bank of Big Lake.

To me, it seems that it's a lose lose situation. Put up weirs and keep mother nature from running her course but save the marsh, or no weirs and let mother nature have her way but maybe lose some marsh.
We messed with Mother Nature when we put in the ship channel, the levees along the MS River, etc. Now we are paying for it. But, without the ship channel what would the Lake Charles really be? Shipping is a boom to that economy, and also SE La the same argument could be made I guess. There are going to be some hard decisions made and not everyone is going to be happy with them

Wish there was a way to do it and make everyone happy, but once you get accustomed to doing something for so long (like catching trout on the lake), its hard to go back.
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  #114  
Old 08-20-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Duck Butter View Post
We messed with Mother Nature when we put in the ship channel, the levees along the MS River, etc. Now we are paying for it. But, without the ship channel what would the Lake Charles really be? Shipping is a boom to that economy, and also SE La the same argument could be made I guess. There are going to be some hard decisions made and not everyone is going to be happy with them

Wish there was a way to do it and make everyone happy, but once you get accustomed to doing something for so long (like catching trout on the lake), its hard to go back.
Agreed 100%
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  #115  
Old 08-20-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Duck Butter View Post
We messed with Mother Nature when we put in the ship channel, the levees along the MS River, etc. Now we are paying for it. But, without the ship channel what would the Lake Charles really be? Shipping is a boom to that economy, and also SE La the same argument could be made I guess. There are going to be some hard decisions made and not everyone is going to be happy with them

Wish there was a way to do it and make everyone happy, but once you get accustomed to doing something for so long (like catching trout on the lake), its hard to go back.

Well put! Can we end this thread now?
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  #116  
Old 08-20-2013, 12:22 PM
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Well put! Can we end this thread now?
It will come up every year by W
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  #117  
Old 08-20-2013, 01:02 PM
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It will come up every year by W
Scientists and professionals should not tire or express frustrations when presented with opportunities to engage with the public. Public misperceptions exist because the experience of the general public is much different than the experiences of professionals, scientists, and policy makers.

Publishing papers and reports and hobnobbing with policy makers may impact the world of the common man, but does little to educate him regarding "why"? Many citizens are left wondering and speculating regarding the relative importance of money, influence, science, and power in shaping policy that effects them.

For every "W" who bothers to post and challenge for better answers, there are ten others reading the thread and possibly dozens of others who harbor similar sentiments without bothering much follow-up. The "new media" goes beyond Fox news, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity. It is played out on twitter, blogs, discussion forums, Wikipedia, etc. every day. And even on SaltyCajun.

The saltwater intrusion page at wikipedia is pretty good, but can be improved. Improving the Calcasieu Lake wikipedia page would be warmly welcomed, and could certainly have a section for the importance of the weirs in reducing saltwater intrusion into the marsh. Then in the future, you could simply cite that material.
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  #118  
Old 08-20-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MathGeek View Post
Scientists and professionals should not tire or express frustrations when presented with opportunities to engage with the public. Public misperceptions exist because the experience of the general public is much different than the experiences of professionals, scientists, and policy makers.

Publishing papers and reports and hobnobbing with policy makers may impact the world of the common man, but does little to educate him regarding "why"? Many citizens are left wondering and speculating regarding the relative importance of money, influence, science, and power in shaping policy that effects them.

For every "W" who bothers to post and challenge for better answers, there are ten others reading the thread and possibly dozens of others who harbor similar sentiments without bothering much follow-up. The "new media" goes beyond Fox news, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity. It is played out on twitter, blogs, discussion forums, Wikipedia, etc. every day. And even on SaltyCajun.

The saltwater intrusion page at wikipedia is pretty good, but can be improved. Improving the Calcasieu Lake wikipedia page would be warmly welcomed, and could certainly have a section for the importance of the weirs in reducing saltwater intrusion into the marsh. Then in the future, you could simply cite that material.
First off, knowing you are a scientist, I am amazed you would suggest citing Wikipedia in even a semi-scientific study.

Second, I don't believe it makes a difference in what we, as scientists, have to say, when it is obvious that the public thinks that they know what is best based on a fish population. Very few people here, in my opinion, based on what I have read, understand that that lake is far more than fish. That the marsh is far more than fish. Just because a Marsh is green does not mean it is healthy. I could explain all of this for the thousandth time on this board, and it would make no difference, because minds are made up. The weirs are bad. There is no changing that mindset when it is solely based on fish.

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  #119  
Old 08-20-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MathGeek View Post
Scientists and professionals should not tire or express frustrations when presented with opportunities to engage with the public. Public misperceptions exist because the experience of the general public is much different than the experiences of professionals, scientists, and policy makers.

Publishing papers and reports and hobnobbing with policy makers may impact the world of the common man, but does little to educate him regarding "why"? Many citizens are left wondering and speculating regarding the relative importance of money, influence, science, and power in shaping policy that effects them.

For every "W" who bothers to post and challenge for better answers, there are ten others reading the thread and possibly dozens of others who harbor similar sentiments without bothering much follow-up. The "new media" goes beyond Fox news, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity. It is played out on twitter, blogs, discussion forums, Wikipedia, etc. every day. And even on SaltyCajun.

The saltwater intrusion page at wikipedia is pretty good, but can be improved. Improving the Calcasieu Lake wikipedia page would be warmly welcomed, and could certainly have a section for the importance of the weirs in reducing saltwater intrusion into the marsh. Then in the future, you could simply cite that material.
W just likes to stir the pot
The wikipedia page should also include the word 'troll' and a pic of W on it

I do agree with most of that though. It is much easier to work with an animal than it is the general public and especially in Louisiana. We do not like change and for this reason it is why we are always last at getting things done. I still have family members who refuse to call in deer they kill even though the tagging system has been going on for several years, they do not want anyone knowing how many deer they killed and then they will be the first ones to gripe about the way LDWF handles things

And look at attendance at public meetings on issues that actually affect people, no one attends them. Surveys go out to people looking for public comment and no one answers them. For instance, the Coastal Master Plan has been going on for many years and there have been many meetings and the public was encouraged to attend. The meetings were posted on every outdoor site around for years and now when some of these things get rolling the public cries wolf and acts like they knew nothing about any of this (see the Save Louisiana Coalition another story altogether though)
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  #120  
Old 08-20-2013, 02:21 PM
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First off, knowing you are a scientist, I am amazed you would suggest citing Wikipedia in even a semi-scientific study.
You missed the point. I am suggesting using Wikipedia as a public outreach and educational too to improve understanding. Colleagues and I began doing this years ago, realizing that thousands of desperate students every day google up math and physics topics and learn more from Wikipedia than from their textbooks. You can see the usage stats show many more hits on weekdays than weekends and many more hits during the spring and fall semesters, and even more hits at the time in a semester when a subject is typically taught. See the hit stats on "Chain Rule" (a method of differentiation taught in Calculus).

Improving the Wikipedia article on saltwater intrusion would impact thousands of readers each year and give you something to cite rather than repeating everything when it comes up again next year rather than having to create a single use answer for a limited SaltyCajun audience.

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Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
Second, I don't believe it makes a difference in what we, as scientists, have to say, when it is obvious that the public thinks that they know what is best based on a fish population. Very few people here, in my opinion, based on what I have read, understand that that lake is far more than fish. That the marsh is far more than fish. Just because a Marsh is green does not mean it is healthy. I could explain all of this for the thousandth time on this board, and it would make no difference, because minds are made up. The weirs are bad. There is no changing that mindset when it is solely based on fish.
Wikipedia is a much louder and effective microphone than SaltyCajun, and many laymen turn to it to get the scoop on many topics. Improving the saltwater intrusion and Calcasieu Lake articles, linking them to each other and to other related articles (shrimp, crabs, specks, redfish, Cameron Parish, marsh, wetlends, etc.), and visiting them regularly to reverse the introduction of bad info can be a powerful tool in the long term improvement in the perspective of the general public. Links from high traffic wiki pages pay the biggest dividends by increasing readership.
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