Waterfowl Hunter Survey Closes tonight

[Spunt Drag]

Actually, shut the season down completely for a couple years.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

Apparently I was less oblivious and less lazy than the 25k other people you tried contacting. Little FYI about the LDWF website that has a bear banner or whatever on it, very few people view that regularly for leisure if at all.

Since when do we care so much about the people that care so little???? Screw the idiots that were too lazy to vote, they're prolly the ones that are too lazy to hunt second split when the north wind blown marsh is a mud flat and we're out there scraping up our last few birds of the season. They don't want To vote? Great, move on.

My biggest concern about this whole circuis is the idea that we're out there asking a bunch of everyday idiots when they want their seasons and how many birds they want to shoot? What happened to scientific research, analysis, and decisions. Sounds like yall have ran the numbers on people research just as much as waterfowl. Yea.... I do wanna shoot 3 specks a hunt. Why? Bc I'm a wing shooter not a biologist. But in all reality my wants should not have any impact on what the limits should be. If the specklebelly population can handle 95k shooters at 3 birds a day then great, if it can't then make the correct limit adjustment. When should the season open, hell if I know, I'm not a biologist. Tell me when the birds make their migration and I'll be out there bright and early with my gun, dog, and decoys. Some idiot who thinks the next cold front is gonna bring the big push of blue wings to him or that all the birds show up after the season when in all reality they just decide to leave the unhunted field next to his sky busting buddies.

If the population can handle a 10 bird limit make it 10. If it can only handle 2 birds make it 2. If the season needs to open the 9th Tuesday in November, or the 2 Saturday in December, let us know. I'll be out there either way.

Make scientific decisions with scientific based facts, but if you care so much to hear people's opinions then listen to the ones that speak and don't worry about the ones that don't.

Literally every single website that has anything to do with hunting in Louisiana has had it posted at least twice. Duck hunting chat, refuge forums, LA Sporstman, saltycajun, tigerdroppings, etc. etc.

You do get a chance to voice your opinion. The guidelines are set by the feds and you are getting the chance to voice your opinion on what you want here in Louisiana.

Simmer down

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Actually, shut the season down completely for a couple years.

Ban mud boats and get back to hunting with paddles or having to actually work.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

I am not saying he isn't doing the best with what he's got, he said they have to explore better options to get a better response and manage costs. They have their survey information and participation results, they can review and analyze what can be done better next time. I'm sure he has very constraining budgets and resources, that's the tough part of being a government entity.

Went back and looked at the 4 posts, apparently it was still tough for some to find or access, guess you can lead the horse to water but you cant make them drink. I stated that earlier about the lack of voter participation. Possibly not conducting the survey in the dead heat of summer, especially if you're looking to get a less senior vote. All the kids you were looking for participation from are in Destin or Galveston right now celebrating their HS graduation and obviously(from their participation) couldn't care less about waterfowl at this time. Give them another few months, they'll start to pop their heads back in and prod around. You have to go where the people are going to see it AND be most inclined to participate, bottom line. Get them somewhere where you know they will have to be, apparently it wasn't where they tried this time. Maybe the poor participation was due to not knowing it was available, too lazy too participate, or just flat out not caring. Guess they'll have to do a survey on that too.

We are talking about a survey here. You are never, repeat, NEVER, going to get 100% participation.

With the number of hunters that think the government is "out to get them" or "spying", you will never get 100% participation. I would be surprised if it ever breaks 50%. Even if you post the link in the easiest place to get to. Even if you manage to get e-mails for all 95k hunters. There will still always be that subset that doesn't want to tell the government anything.

Someone mentioned the people at wal-mart not filling out the HIP correctly. I've known people to say that they will tell them all 0 because they don't want the government to know how many birds they are killing.

So, how do you expect people to ever participate even close to what you apparently want, when people just aren't going to take the time to do it? I mean, 25k received the survey by e-mail, and only 5400 responded. That should tell you right there that e-mailing the survey to all 95k would not solve anything.

I received mine in the mail, and was more than happy to fill it out and return it. If everyone had the desire that you and I have to contribute to the information that LDWF has, then you would see that percentage go up.

But hunter attitudes, in my experience, are to the contrary. They don't want to tell the government anything. So until that mindset is changed, it doesn't matter if you question them at the boat launch, they aren't going to answer.

Originally Posted by Nickt87

My biggest concern about this whole circuis is the idea that we're out there asking a bunch of everyday idiots when they want their seasons and how many birds they want to shoot? What happened to scientific research, analysis, and decisions.

The end user is the duck hunter. Their opinion may not be the sole basis for the decisions, but it has to be taken into account. If you don't have an end user, you have no profit to sell, and thus you have no money to manage that product. In this case, the hunters buying licenses and shells and all the other goodies associated with hunting is the funding source for management and wildlife agencies. No funding = no wildlife agencies = no management = no ducks.

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to label anyone as an "everyday idiot". I really don't think that someone is an expert on how a species should be managed just because they've been hunting them for 30 days a year for 10 or 15 or 20 years. I know guys that have hunted ducks religiously for longer than I have, kill the hell out of them, and don't know what the damn limits are for a particular species.

Trust me, I don't want that guy setting the regulations, because he doesn't know anything but killing ducks.

[Nickt87]

Originally Posted by Smalls

We are talking about a survey here. You are never, repeat, NEVER, going to get 100% participation.

With the number of hunters that think the government is "out to get them" or "spying", you will never get 100% participation. I would be surprised if it ever breaks 50%. Even if you post the link in the easiest place to get to. Even if you manage to get e-mails for all 95k hunters. There will still always be that subset that doesn't want to tell the government anything.

Someone mentioned the people at wal-mart not filling out the HIP correctly. I've known people to say that they will tell them all 0 because they don't want the government to know how many birds they are killing.

So, how do you expect people to ever participate even close to what you apparently want, when people just aren't going to take the time to do it? I mean, 25k received the survey by e-mail, and only 5400 responded. That should tell you right there that e-mailing the survey to all 95k would not solve anything.

I received mine in the mail, and was more than happy to fill it out and return it. If everyone had the desire that you and I have to contribute to the information that LDWF has, then you would see that percentage go up.

But hunter attitudes, in my experience, are to the contrary. They don't want to tell the government anything. So until that mindset is changed, it doesn't matter if you question them at the boat launch, they aren't going to answer.



The end user is the duck hunter. Their opinion may not be the sole basis for the decisions, but it has to be taken into account. If you don't have an end user, you have no profit to sell, and thus you have no money to manage that product. In this case, the hunters buying licenses and shells and all the other goodies associated with hunting is the funding source for management and wildlife agencies. No funding = no wildlife agencies = no management = no ducks.

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to label anyone as an "everyday idiot". I really don't think that someone is an expert on how a species should be managed just because they've been hunting them for 30 days a year for 10 or 15 or 20 years. I know guys that have hunted ducks religiously for longer than I have, kill the hell out of them, and don't know what the damn limits are for a particular species.

Trust me, I don't want that guy setting the regulations, because he doesn't know anything but killing ducks.

I agree with your participation theory, but I'm sure LDWF has a target participation level that they feel is achievable and are aiming for it.

As for the everyday idiot theory, I was referring to every single hunter that is not a biologist, including myself. Just because someone is a successful or passionate hunter does not dually qualify them to be a biologist. I'm sure many successful La hunters have never ventured north of Shreveport and have no idea how hatch rates, predator rates, and the million other factors up north have an impact on the waterfowl the other 10 months out the year. They gauge what they want limits on by how many birds they want to kill, not by what is healthy for the overall big picture.

We pay taxes, licenses, and join conservation organizations to help fund the biologist and research, let them do their job.

Like I said make the limit 2 or 10 and I'll be there either way.

[noodle creek]

I understand that everyone's opinion should be taken into account, and some of the questions really had little to do with someone's experience level. However, the questions about zones due to populations at certain times of year in certain locations, season dates, and other questions in this same category can't be answered with much credibility from someone who hunts 4-10 days a year vs someone who hunts 40-60 days a year.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

I agree with your participation theory, but I'm sure LDWF has a target participation level that they feel is achievable and are aiming for it.

As for the everyday idiot theory, I was referring to every single hunter that is not a biologist, including myself. Just because someone is a successful or passionate hunter does not dually qualify them to be a biologist. I'm sure many successful La hunters have never ventured north of Shreveport and have no idea how hatch rates, predator rates, and the million other factors up north have an impact on the waterfowl the other 10 months out the year. They gauge what they want limits on by how many birds they want to kill, not by what is healthy for the overall big picture.

We pay taxes, licenses, and join conservation organizations to help fund the biologist and research, let them do their job.

Like I said make the limit 2 or 10 and I'll be there either way.

Ah, gotcha. That is basically what I was getting at, but my comment regarding end users still applies. They set pretty much every hunting season with some input from the public. After all, it is a public resource and LDWF is a public service agency.

Originally Posted by noodle creek

I understand that everyone's opinion should be taken into account, and some of the questions really had little to do with someone's experience level. However, the questions about zones due to populations at certain times of year in certain locations, season dates, and other questions in this same category can't be answered with much credibility from someone who hunts 4-10 days a year vs someone who hunts 40-60 days a year.

I disagree, and only because most hunters are not moving around within a particular zone. The only difference between a hunter that is afield 4-10 and a hunter that is afield 40-60 days is the number of observations in a given area....in most cases. Now there are some people that move around within a zone, but they aren't all over the zone, and they probably don't spend an equal number of days at different areas within that zone.

There may not be many birds in one part of the zone, but there may be several in another part of that zone, and vice versa. So to say that someone that is afield for 40-60 days knows more about what the season dates should be in a zone because he is spending more time afield is somewhat false, in my opinion. If both are hunting the same area, then yes, he can likely more accurately paint a picture than the 4-10 day hunter. But if both are in different parts of the Coastal Zone, for instance, does the 40-60 day hunter on his private land in Johnson Bayou have more credibility than the 4-10 day hunter on private land in Vermillion Parish east of Freshwater Bayou when commenting on the framework for the entire coastal zone?

What if you have two hunters that both hunt 40-60 days in the Coastal Zone, but one is Cameron Parish, and the other in Terrebonne Parish? What if the Cameron Parish hunter is fine with the current framework and the Terrebonne hunter would like the split to occur later or earlier? What do you do in this situation? Who has more credibility? Neither ventures outside of his parish, so neither knows what the rest of the zone looks like.

Does the 40-60 day hunter have more credibility than the 4-10 day hunter? Sure. But how much more is the real question, and can you quantify that? And does it apply to the entire zone if he is only hunting one small area of it? I don't think there should be any more weight given to that hunter than the 4-10 day hunter, because any one person's experience depends on a number of variables. If you are in the wrong place, you may see things very differently than if you were in a place where there were lots of ducks.

[noodle creek]

Originally Posted by Smalls

Ah, gotcha. That is basically what I was getting at, but my comment regarding end users still applies. They set pretty much every hunting season with some input from the public. After all, it is a public resource and LDWF is a public service agency.




I disagree, and only because most hunters are not moving around within a particular zone. The only difference between a hunter that is afield 4-10 and a hunter that is afield 40-60 days is the number of observations in a given area....in most cases. Now there are some people that move around within a zone, but they aren't all over the zone, and they probably don't spend an equal number of days at different areas within that zone.

There may not be many birds in one part of the zone, but there may be several in another part of that zone, and vice versa. So to say that someone that is afield for 40-60 days knows more about what the season dates should be in a zone because he is spending more time afield is somewhat false, in my opinion. If both are hunting the same area, then yes, he can likely more accurately paint a picture than the 4-10 day hunter. But if both are in different parts of the Coastal Zone, for instance, does the 40-60 day hunter on his private land in Johnson Bayou have more credibility than the 4-10 day hunter on private land in Vermillion Parish east of Freshwater Bayou when commenting on the framework for the entire coastal zone?

What if you have two hunters that both hunt 40-60 days in the Coastal Zone, but one is Cameron Parish, and the other in Terrebonne Parish? What if the Cameron Parish hunter is fine with the current framework and the Terrebonne hunter would like the split to occur later or earlier? What do you do in this situation? Who has more credibility? Neither ventures outside of his parish, so neither knows what the rest of the zone looks like.

Does the 40-60 day hunter have more credibility than the 4-10 day hunter? Sure. But how much more is the real question, and can you quantify that? And does it apply to the entire zone if he is only hunting one small area of it? I don't think there should be any more weight given to that hunter than the 4-10 day hunter, because any one person's experience depends on a number of variables. If you are in the wrong place, you may see things very differently than if you were in a place where there were lots of ducks.

How is someone who hunt's 4-10 days going to know as much about what is going on in their area as someone who hunts 40-60 days? What if the 4-10 day hunter is never out on a cold front, north wind day to see the huge flights of new birds coming in? Not to mention the fact that to get to where most hunters are hunting, they probably drive through other waterfowl habitat and different areas on their way too and from their blind. I understand that different areas are not related, but there are people who hunt 40-60 days in every part of this state. To think that someone who may only be out there a few days a year has just as good of a grasp on what happens in their area as someone who is out there every day is crazy. For instance, I drive down highway 14 from Lake Charles to Gueydan every day of duck season, so I see what is going on in areas much bigger than just the blind that I hunt.

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

30/3 or bust

I vote 10/1

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by Goooh

Ban mud boats and get back to hunting with paddles or having to actually work.

they did that in plaqumines parish

[DaPointIsDaBomb]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

You proved my point perfectly. 95k Duck hunters. 30k contacted for the survey? Where did you see the highest percentage of response? EMAIL. Find a way to access the 95k duck hunter's email(maybe request their email when doing the HIP survey annually) and get the results you're looking for. Email directly contacts the user, their wife cant toss it in the mail while they're at work. Email is much cheaper than snail mail and has an obviously better(not much) response. Focus your resources where they count, this is 2015, even email is almost out of date by the time you click send. Facebook announcement maybe? Just did some scrolling on the LDWF page and I don't recall seeing an announcement/alert on there, 50k followers on there. And sorry about the 21.7% response rate, but this is America, people are just about too lazy to vote for the man that runs the country, it'll be very hard to get them to vote for a law related to a bird that they just started hunting in the last 3 years after they watched A&E.


Keep up the good work and reports, there are a few of us out here that still try to stay in tuned and appreciate all your hard work.

They need to just scrap all this electronics crap and go knock on everyone's door.

I do want to remind you that next year there are a couple big elections coming up you may want to vote in. And you need to renew your fishing license if you haven't already. Just looking out for you because they don't send emails about that stuff

[Nickt87]

Originally Posted by DaPointIsDaBomb

They need to just scrap all this electronics crap and go knock on everyone's door.

I do want to remind you that next year there are a couple big elections coming up you may want to vote in. And you need to renew your fishing license if you haven't already. Just looking out for you because they don't send emails about that stuff

No worries slick, I have a lifetime license. Even if I didn't it wouldn't be hard to remember because its the same date every year for a fishing license renewal. The presidential election is every 4 years on the Tuesday between the 2nd and the 8th of November. Pretty easy to learn and remember that one too, if you received and education and are an active contributing member of society.

Now go lather up some more peanut butter on your go nads, and dig up your dead silver lab and enjoy the afternoon.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

No worries slick, I have a lifetime license. Even if I didn't it wouldn't be hard to remember because its the same date every year for a fishing license renewal. The presidential election is every 4 years on the Tuesday between the 2nd and the 8th of November. Pretty easy to learn and remember that one too, if you received and education and are an active contributing member of society.

Now go lather up some more peanut butter on your go nads, and dig up your dead silver lab and enjoy the afternoon.

Maybe since you so smart knowing those dates they will count your vote extra

You drive a Chevy don't you

[Nickt87]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Maybe since you so smart knowing those dates they will count your vote extra

You drive a Chevy don't you

NO DUCK BUTTER, that's not how it works. Because I know the dates and stay in tuned they only count me for half a vote. They don't care about my vote, they want the least interested person's vote. DUH!!! guess you didn't learn anything on this thread.

And I do drive a Chevy, but only in my wildest most adventurous dreams.

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by Nickt87

NO DUCK BUTTER, that's not how it works. Because I know the dates and stay in tuned they only count me for half a vote. They don't care about my vote, they want the least interested person's vote. DUH!!! guess you didn't learn anything on this thread.

And I do drive a Chevy, but only in my wildest most adventurous dreams.

this post has a 20% chance of being a lemon

[Spunt Drag]

Originally Posted by meaux fishing

I vote 10/1

You got my vote.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by noodle creek

How is someone who hunt's 4-10 days going to know as much about what is going on in their area as someone who hunts 40-60 days? What if the 4-10 day hunter is never out on a cold front, north wind day to see the huge flights of new birds coming in? Not to mention the fact that to get to where most hunters are hunting, they probably drive through other waterfowl habitat and different areas on their way too and from their blind. I understand that different areas are not related, but there are people who hunt 40-60 days in every part of this state. To think that someone who may only be out there a few days a year has just as good of a grasp on what happens in their area as someone who is out there every day is crazy. For instance, I drive down highway 14 from Lake Charles to Gueydan every day of duck season, so I see what is going on in areas much bigger than just the blind that I hunt.

Where did I suggest that someone who hunts 4-10 days knows as much as someone that is hunting 40-60 days in the same area? If we are talking about zones, someone that hunts 40-60 days in Cameron Parish doesn't know anymore about Vermilion parish than the guy that hunts 4-10 days in Vermilion Parish.

Now you are introducing an entirely different aspect to this conversation though. Three years ago, I was doing check outs of waterfowl roosting areas. I looked at more land with ducks sitting on it than I bet a lot of hunters do. But, I didn't hunt 40-60 days. Probably more in the range of the 4-10 dayer, because of work and school. Should I have had a greater voice than any other hunter? I saw when the first ducks showed up, and I saw when the last one's left. I guess I should have been on the committee to set the season or something.

I'm sure there are many people that drive up and down Highway 27 in Cameron Parish every day. Probably up and down Highway 14 too. Does that mean they have a better grasp on what the frame work should be in the Coastal Zone, because they are looking at those marshes every day? I bet a lot of them don't even hunt. Slippery slope right there.

If you start giving more voice to a certain group, what do you think is going to happen? As I mentioned before, I know several older, seasoned duck hunters that would very much like to see 30/3 come back, because they think it will thin the competition. Is that what is best for the resource and the sport? Probably not. All it will do is please a few people, and is not at all scientific.

I don't know where you got that I was suggesting that the 4-10 dayer knew as much as the 40-60 dayer. That was not my point at all. My point was, and I wrote it very clearly, most 40-60 dayers are hunting the same area; they aren't hunting across the zone. Are you telling me that what one guy sees in Cameron Parish is the tell-all for the entire coastal zone? There are 40-60 dayers all across the state, we can agree on that, but do you think every 40-60 dayer in the Coastal Zone is going to agree on when the split should be? I seriously doubt that, because the birds show up at different times across the zone, and they leave at different times. I've heard guys in certain parts of the Coastal and Eastern zone say that once you get into January, you might as well hang your gun up.

All I'm saying is, relying on one voice or group of voices more than another is a bad idea. That 4-10 dayer may not hit the conditions you described, but he's still out there.

Everyone better get ready to do a lot more griping in the future with the new method for setting the frame work. At least they could be a little more accurate when they were setting it in August or September. There's going to be some chapped asses when they start setting it with all the other hunting seasons in January or February.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Lreynolds

Consequently, if we tried to estimate hunter activity and harvest from the open-web survey, we would badly over-estimate because of a non-randomness and lack of representativeness in the sample. One of our primary scientific contributions to date is showing that despite the respondents being very different, the open-web and random mail-out surveys gave almost identical results for questions on satisfaction, preference for regulatory actions, and attitudes toward management activities.

I'll just leave this here. Seems to me like there is a reason the "most dedicated hunters" like Nick aren't the sole target of the surveys, because it would result in overshooting.

Hmmmmm, interesting that there isn't much difference between the open-web (which Larry tells us the dedicated hunters typically take) and the mail-out surveys (which are completely random). So either the only hunters completing the mail-out surveys are dedicated hunters, or the 4-10 dayers know more than people want to admit.

So if the opinions have been almost identical, then what the hell is everyone's problem?

[ckinchen]

On a different note, the waterfowl survey came out today. Duck numbers are up again.

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by ckinchen

On a different note, the waterfowl survey came out today. Duck numbers are up again.

yeah but scaup numbers are 13% down over the LTA