Flounder Pressure in Cameron

[LaAngler]

This evening at Academy I spent a good while talking with a guy who specializes in catching flounder in cameron.

He told me since texas regulated the gigging laws and creels there, he's seeing a lot more texas flounder boats in our waters.

He also shared some information and I would like to verify whether it's true or false. He said during the fall flounder run, the butterfly shrimpers would rig up their nets in a special way. This method allows baitfish and shrimp to pass through the nets and only trap flounder. They set up at night in the bayou's and along the banks of the navigation channels.

He mentioned he buys shrimp near the "crab man" down in Cameron. During a couple of his trips he saw what he estimated to be hundreds of pounds in flounder being unloaded onto the docks by the commercial fishermen. The price was 2-3 dollars a pound.

The guy told me he mentioned this to one of the local CCA guys and they told him that is was impossible and wasn't happening.

My questions are, is this legal? Is is true?

[BossHog]

I dont know about that but I was told when they use to gillnet back in the day something like 60%-80% of the commercial flounder caught in LA came from calcasieu pass

[Ray]

The shrimpers do catch Flounder in butterfly nets, but they don't do anything special
with their nets.
They push the nets for shrimp and keep any Flounder that are legal. They don't sell
them in Cameron, they sell in Hackberry.
Them's the guys who tell me when the Flounder are running and I hook it up down
there to catch me some too.

[Ray]

I dont know about that but I was told when they use to gillnet back in the day something like 60%-80% of the commercial flounder caught in LA came from calcasieu pass

They put the gill nets around the weir areas. They knew most of the
Flounder came out of there and around the Salt Ditch and coming out
of Kelso Bayou.

[LaAngler]

this gentleman claims they were offloading in cameron, and not just a few flounder, like hundreds. And also that the nets were modified, i'm not sure why he would lie?

edit

here is a possible loophole

Flounder, Southern: Ten fish for each licensed fisherman for each consecutive day on the water EXCEPT any commercial shrimping vessels may retain and any commercial fisherman may sell all Southern flounder caught as bycatch on any shrimping trip.

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/fishing/commercial/saltwater/regulations/

[Ray]

They are not doing anything illegal. I have seen them doing this for over 40 years.
You will always find a few outlaws. But most are doing what they can to keep their
families fed.
After Rita, there was 1 place that bought fish. After Ike, the only place was in
Hackberry. They get different prices for different sized fish. It is not a $2/lb. price.
I can get you more info. from the shrimpers, but it won't change anything.
They are not targeting Flounder. They are not changing their nets. Them nets cost
a lot. Why would they let their #1 catch, shrimp, go thru their nets.
I was born and raised down there. I lived in Cameron for 36 years. I know most of the
local shrimpers in Cameron. They are not changing anything to catch just Flounder.
And they cannot drag any nets when the shrimp season is closed. They can only
catch the Flounder in the lake and river during the inshore shrimp season.

[Ray]

I have never seen a Texas Founder boat in Cameron. I don't know what a Flounder
boat looks like. Neither does any of the shrimpers in Cameron that I know.
Post a picture of one and I will go look next Fall.
When shrimping in Big Lake was hot back in the 70's, Texas shrimpers came to drag
here. Then it died out. There are a few offshore and beach shrimpers from Texas,
but I never see them in the river or lake.

[Ray]

I am going to make a few calls in the morning.
I will find out about any Texas boats docking in Cameron.
They may be docking in Hackberry.
There is a big shortage of dock space for commercial fishermen in Cameron.
Before Rita, there were about 5 or 6 big fish docks. Now there is only the old
Bolo dock and one in the old river at the end of the road.
I know the guy who runs the old Bolo dock and my brother in law sells oysters
at the other seafood dock.
The seafood dock and ice house that was by the Crab Man was wiped out by
Hurricane Ike.

[LaAngler]

i'm not doubting you Ray, but i'm going to play devils advocate here.

They are not doing anything illegal. I have seen them doing this for over 40 years.

I didn't say it was illegal, I said there may be a loophole in the law.

But most are doing what they can to keep their families fed.

I think that's what the Charlie Hardison crew said when the got popped with a thousand snapper out of season. ;)

After Rita, there was 1 place that bought fish. After Ike, the only place was in Hackberry. They get different prices for different sized fish. It is not a $2/lb. price.

I've sold fish in the old Abe's parking lot you'd be shocked how easy fish is to sell, especially to restaurant owners.

I can get you more info. from the shrimpers, but it won't change anything.

I'm sure they would give me perfectly accurate info! :redface:

i doubt it would change anything myself, LDWF is more concerned with checking the expiration date on someone's fire extinguisher 50 yards away from the lakeshore drive hdqtrs. CCA is more worried about the money that STAR rakes in. (biggest kill tournament on gulf coast, lol)

And they cannot drag any nets when the shrimp season is closed. They can only catch the Flounder in the lake and river during the inshore shrimp season.


Shrimp season stayed open a long time


btw, i was talking about rec flounder boats :spineyes:

[Ray]

I don't think recreational flounder fishermen can hurt our population.
I have seen first hand, thousands of founder moving out to the gulf.
It was amazing to see. And sometimes they don't bite when moving.
There is no loophole. It is perfectly legal to sell Flounder caught in
their nets. I don't understand that statement.
I have hit them migrating out to the gulf twice this year and only saw
2 other boats fishing with a rod and reel besides my boat both times.
From what the shrimpers told me, they got 3 good Flounder migrations
that hit right after 3 different fronts this year.

[LaAngler]

thousands of founder moving out to the gulf.
It was amazing to see. And sometimes they don't bite when moving.
There is no loophole. It is perfectly legal to sell Flounder caught in
their nets.


So it would be possible to do this then. It wouldn't be legal to keep more than 10 if the intentions were to catch flounder, that's my only point.

I don't think recreational flounder fishermen can hurt our population.

So you do agree that commercial fisherman can right?

[Ray]

I agree that any commercial fishing group can wipe out any type of seafood.
They already have. Some of them don't care as long as they are making money.
Then when there are no more fish, they blame the gov't. and want them to pay
them to do nothing.
But some of them do care cause they are somewhat educated and want to keep
working in the commercial fishing industry. They don't know or want to do anything
else.

[Mediumheavyaction6'6]

i have seen commercial shrimpers unload 3 or 4 of the big ice boxes filled with flounder selling them for $2 a pound, down in Port Fourchon

[Ray]

Depending on size, they get between $2.50 and $2.00.
The shrimpers I know in Cameron sold in Hackberry this year.
They don't keep them all, the buyer only buys a certain size, the rest get thrown back.
They sell early cause once the markets get flooded, the price goes down.
If the price goes below $2, they chunk them all back. They said it is not worth it to
keep them if they get below $2.
There are no special nets. They drag for shrimp. If they catch Flounder, they keep
what they can sell.
They said the Founder are a pain in the azz depending on the size and how many they
are catching. They would rather catch just shrimp, but you have to take what you
can get when the price is good.
The shrimp leave the marshes and the Flounder are close behind.
I am going to be ready for them flat bastids next fall.

[cmdrost]

The commercials are well within their limits, but will destroy fish populations, like they have with snapper & grouper.

As for Texans and their limits, they are cracking down on everything and it won't be long till their all over here fishing. All it takes is a few good reports on the internet. I've even heard they might start to close trout in certain parts of the state for certain parts of the year. Their trout fishery is in a bad way right now.

[LaAngler]

i read some talking about wanting to close trout season after this freeze! and that's the rec guys talking

[Ray]

The commercials are well within their limits, but will destroy fish populations, like they have with snapper & grouper.

As for Texans and their limits, they are cracking down on everything and it won't be long till their all over here fishing. All it takes is a few good reports on the internet. I've even heard they might start to close trout in certain parts of the state for certain parts of the year. Their trout fishery is in a bad way right now.

If it is that bad, why do they keep the limits at 25 for the whole state except for here? Don't make sense.

[LaAngler]

i think he's talking about texas

i say make the shrimpers use a cast net only

[Ray]

And they would say to let you use a cast net only for trout.

It's one against another. The lobby with the most money and pull wins.

There are very few shrimpers left who pull or push nets in the lake.
Few are in the river or ship channel for inland.
The big money is on the beaches and offshore.

Like I said before, if you seen the amount of Flounder I saw going out
to the gulf the 2 times I fished them, you would be amazed. After seeing
that, I cannot believe there is any harm to the population.
We caught 30 Flounder in one trip, as fast as we could throw the lure
out and bring them back.
Second trip, they wouldn't bite any artificial. We had to get some dead
bait and a cork. Then it took us an hour to get 20 fish. Don't know what
the difference was, but they work differently at different times.

[cmdrost]

I am talking about TX, but LA aint too far behind. I don't think LA will get to the point of a closed season on trout, but they will have to lower limits statewide, including here again.

["W"]

HOLD UP!!!........... I have to step in!!! If Texas is losing trout its not because there over fishing with rod n reel!! its because there losing something??? What are they losing Estuary, Marshes, or some type of Habitat.... Trout produce in mass numbers under 12inches and survive pretty darn good!!!!

I don't care if you put 20million fisherman on BIG LAKE for a month you will by NO Means fish out the population with rod n reel.......IMPOSSIBLE to do!!! The gulf of Mexico holds billions of trout and they move in and out daily.....If we protect our Estuary and Habitat.....this kind of fishing will last until end of time

[LaAngler]

texas is hurting their trout population with all the guides and fisherman, period.

what else is doing it?

The lowered limits in the LLM are helping the numbers according to what i'm hearing. Rockport and even up to matagorda are hurting more now.

[Ray]

HOLD UP!!!........... I have to step in!!! If Texas is losing trout its not because there over fishing with rod n reel!! its because there losing something??? What are they losing Estuary, Marshes, or some type of Habitat.... Trout produce in mass numbers under 12inches and survive pretty darn good!!!!

I don't care if you put 20million fisherman on BIG LAKE for a month you will by NO Means fish out the population with rod n reel.......IMPOSSIBLE to do!!! The gulf of Mexico holds billions of trout and they move in and out daily.....If we protect our Estuary and Habitat.....this kind of fishing will last until end of time

That's why we have so many Flounder. Marshes behind Holly Beach, behind
Cameron, behind Hackberry... Those are full of Flounder.
I can't see fishing them out with a rod and reel either.

[Ray]

I am talking about TX, but LA aint too far behind. I don't think LA will get to the point of a closed season on trout, but they will have to lower limits statewide, including here again.

I would like to see the same limits state wide. Don't make sense to have
just one lake at 15 and the rest of the state at 25.
I know it was to attract attention to Big Lake area, but at 15, I eat lots
of trout and still can give some to my dad.

["W"]

I know this is for FACT.........NO WAY in HELL can you fish out a breed of fish with a rod n reel in a healthy habitat...NO going to happen by my watch!!! I want let anyone tell me other wise unless they have proof........ Talking with a guide at the landing about a month ago .. we were talking about tagging trout and the number of them.... He was telling me a story about how he drifted a reef 4 times and caught 4 fish.... his 5th drift the WL&F did some kind of trout catching with nets and had 1,000 of trout just were he passed!!!!

[Jordan]

I know this is for FACT.........NO WAY in HELL can you fish out a breed of fish with a rod n reel in a healthy habitat...NO going to happen by my watch!!! I want let anyone tell me other wise unless they have proof........ Talking with a guide at the landing about a month ago .. we were talking about tagging trout and the number of them.... He was telling me a story about how he drifted a reef 4 times and caught 4 fish.... his 5th drift the WL&F did some kind of trout catching with nets and had 1,000 of trout just were he passed!!!!



shoulda used a sand eel jr....:*****:

[Ray]

That LDWF boat is a whaler. They ran up on us in Turners Bay a couple months ago and
threw a hell of a wave, then shut it down and dropped the net. It looked like a small
shrimp trawl.

It stopped the fish from biting. We had to move.

[swamp snorkler]

The flounder move out after the first 2 or 3 cold fronts. I have an uncle who runs a land net in the Chauvin area and this year no one really hit the flounder like they have in years pass. At Robinson Canal I seen a land net with at least 2 to 300 pounds of flounder and after that they caught maybe 10 or 12.

To say shrimpers modify there nets to catch shrimp is total bs........ catching flounder is being in the right place at the time not altering your nets.

[cmdrost]

W...your ignorance on this matter baffles me. Its a combination of overfishing by rod & reel and loss of habitat. More people are fishing more often and we've had 4 major hurricane's hit LA since the last trout SPR #'s were done (which showed a major decline). If you think LA doesn't have a coastal erosion problem, loss of habitat, you're mistaken.

And thanks to the many internet sites available today, like this one, with a few good reports, you'll get your wish and there will be 20 MM people on Big Lake once TX closes its trout season.

[LaAngler]

W acts ignorant just to call attention to himself and provoke others on purpose

I wouldn't put the blame totally on internet sites. Magazines, books, TV, newspapers, better boats, word of mouth, guide services, and just fishermen in general all equal more pressure

heck i would be willing to bet one guide service does more damage to the trout population than this site, without a doubt CCA's STAR tourny definetly does :work:

[Bluechip]

Does anyone know approximately how many guide services operate on Big Lake and also how many guides' each service employ?

["W"]

Well I have trout records I keep from year to year..... I have not seen a decline in my numbers at all..... End of year totals have been with in a hundred dated back to 2001.....

You want real facts on the lake...ask Jeff Poe who has fished the lake longer than most.... I bet he would agree with what I stated above....if so many are worried about trout population stop fishing.... I have no problem catching trout and until my numbers go down

[cmdrost]

W acts ignorant just to call attention to himself and provoke others on purpose

I wouldn't put the blame totally on internet sites. Magazines, books, TV, newspapers, better boats, word of mouth, guide services, and just fishermen in general all equal more pressure

heck i would be willing to bet one guide service does more damage to the trout population than this site, without a doubt CCA's STAR tourny definetly does :work:

Oh I don't blame the internet. You're right, its a combination. But never before has someone in Houston(or whereever) been able to get "real time" data on Big Lake like they can now with the internet.

You're also right that STAR kills more big fish than any other organization......BUT coming next year, STAR will be catch and release on Calcasieu, just like the Trout Shoot Out.

["W"]

I would also like to know how many guide boats are fishing. Big lake..... Off hand in the Hebert side area I can count 18 boats .....

[Ray]

Making Big Lake a "Trophy Trout Lake" also drew a lot of fishermen from across
the Sabine River. They wanted the attention drawn to here, they got it.
After it was designated a trophy lake, people I work with from Mississippi to
NOLA to Lafourche Parish to Vermillion Bay fishermen were all packing up heading
here to fish. It didn't just bring in the Texans. Plus the guide services doubled.
At one time there were just a couple on each side of the lake. Now there are
several on both sides and some from Texas who now fish here.
And I can promise you that of all those fishermen who come here in the summer
to catch a trophy trout, go home with dink trout.
Just a few fall and spring fishermen go home with a trophy.

["W"]

Here ya Go.......... Records of my Trout log since 2001

2001- 2750 Trout 199 Reds
2002-2409 Trout 122 Reds
2003-2411 Trout 220 Reds
2004-2101 Trout 101 Reds
2005-1507 Trout 44 Reds--- In a Accident out 4 Months
2006 3125 Trout 379 Reds
2007 3321 Trout 325 Reds
2008 3100 Trout 375 Reds
2009 2759 Trout 249 Reds

Not all this was keep!! lots were tagged and released....Just numbers I keep on fishing trips for my records......These numbers are almost dead on as far as caught trout in each year!!! Margin of error take 10 give 10.....

[LaAngler]

And I can promise you that of all those fishermen who come here in the summer to catch a trophy trout, go home with dink trout.


i can promise you different :p

[Ray]

i can promise you different :p

Your opinion, my opinion. No winners.
I am just speaking from my co-workers experiences. They were very
disappointed when they paid for trips that don't produce. They fished with HR&G.
I know even more who bring their own boats and don't catch trophy trout.
I don't think Big Lake is any better than any other trout fisheries in the
state.

[LaAngler]

big lake at times has been the best coastal estuary on the gulf coast for numbers of "trophy" trout

if people would release trout over 25" it would certainly help also
:trolls:

[cmdrost]

big lake at times has been the best coastal estuary on the gulf coast for numbers of "trophy" trout

if people would release trout over 25" it would certainly help also


You're right.....otherwise national publications like SWS wouldn't constantly name it as a top 3 spot in the world to catch trophy trout.

["W"]

Bruce question....why over 25? Big trout are such a small % of the breading stock!!!! I don't keep them anyway but if you want population growth release everything under 16inches

[LaAngler]

Because trout that grow to this size are more uncommon, and the more in the lake, the better chances you have of catching one.

it's really simple math


the science just isn't there yet to be able to tell if big trout pass on their traits to the offspring. however, it has been proven that rainbow trout do pass on genetics concerning the growth rates, so i suppose it IS possible that big trout make big trout.

[speckdaddy]

You're right.....otherwise national publications like SWS wouldn't constantly name it as a top 3 spot in the world to catch trophy trout.
i agree, with cell phones and the internet, people are literally only a phone call away from gettin on a school of huge fish and destroyin their numbers!! sayin that big lake is a trophy trout destination does not help!!!!

[Montauk17]

It's insane how many guides are on big lake,that has to hurt it somewhat.

[LaAngler]

I will call this "Hog Theory"

"W", to make it easier to understand for you, think of it like this. I have two tanks. Tank one has a 5 year old pregnant 12 inch rainbow trout. Tank two has a 5 year old pregnant 20 inch rainbow trout.

They both layed eggs and have young uns. One year later, the young trout in tank one average 8 inches, the ones in tank two average 9 inches.

[speckdaddy]

I will call this "Hog Theory"

"W", to make it easier to understand for you, think of it like this. I have two tanks. Tank one has a 5 year old pregnant 12 inch rainbow trout. Tank two has a 5 year old pregnant 20 inch rainbow trout.

They both layed eggs and have young uns. One year later, the young trout in tank one average 8 inches, the ones in tank two average 9 inches.
:*****::*****::*****::p and he still dont understand!!!!!:shaking:

["W"]

So bruce your contradicting your self,.... What are you for? To save big trout or trout over all??? My opinion is guys who trophy trout fish are greedy.... Want to just save big trout....why??? Its been proven already that smaller trout make up the population!!! So are you for the population or big trout???? I just catch trout don't care what size they are....but I'm for the trout over all,,,,, don't act liberal about it....

[longsidelandry]

Big trout, little trout...who cares??? They both make the grease pop!!!

[speckdaddy]

So bruce your contradicting your self,.... What are you for? To save big trout or trout over all??? My opinion is guys who trophy trout fish are greedy.... Want to just save big trout....why??? Its been proven already that smaller trout make up the population!!! So are you for the population or big trout???? I just catch trout don't care what size they are....but I'm for the trout over all,,,,, don't act liberal about it....
w, i will confess, i am just a fisherman, and its damn hard ta turn the tide and be a trophy hunter, these trophy hunters are wayyyy more patient than me and are after just one bite!! ive been tryin and ask fool, ive failed miserably.when the bite is on,dinks or otherwise, im fishin!!! them hogs are hard ta fish and need more respect for the ones that pursue them are the real trophies!@!

[LaAngler]

So bruce your contradicting your self,.... What are you for? To save big trout or trout over all??? My opinion is guys who trophy trout fish are greedy.... Want to just save big trout....why???

I am for all trout especially big ones, the rare ones.

How am I greedy? I fish for whatever gives ME a higher adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment.

I don't eat a ton of fish why do I HAVE to limit out every trip to validate my self?

[speckdaddy]

Big trout, little trout...who cares??? They both make the grease pop!!!
pop, pop,pop!!!mmmmmmmm:*****:

[LaAngler]

just for the record i do not have any problem with keeping fish, over the years we've filleted enough fish to sink the titanic

it's up to the individual and the lawmakers, the last thing we need is to have to apologize for keeping a 6 pound trout like the 2coolers, lol

["W"]

There only a hand full of guys who fish for big trout and 90% release them.....so who cares if on joe blow catches a 7 and keeps it??? 10lb trout is in his last days

[huntin fool]

There only a hand full of guys who fish for big trout and 90% release them.....so who cares if on joe blow catches a 7 and keeps it??? 10lb trout is in his last days


you must be in the 10 percent who don't fish for big girls :p

["W"]

Fool the only time you caught big trout was with me..... Never saw you with any from any others

[huntin fool]

Fool the only time you caught big trout was with me..... Never saw you with any from any others


***** please, go re-read it, i said you don't TARGET BIG TROUT. I never said anything about you not catching a big trout. Settle down *****

[cmdrost]

"My opinion is guys who trophy trout fish are greedy...."

wow is all I can say to this.....

["W"]

"My opinion is guys who trophy trout fish are greedy...."

wow is all I can say to this.....


Dont you think so?? There the only ones I see pushing all these rules and regs!!! You don't see Poe or Rue hollering to lower limits or slot trout!!!

I have never has a boat fisherman email me to remove a post but yet have had 10 on top of my head from avid waders to remove a post!!

So what do you call that?

[cmdrost]

NO...I don't think so at all!

Rue was right there along side with me in Baton Rouge in favor of lower limits! So were the Stansels.

Poe was there too! He was against it though. But if you ask him now, he'll say it was the best thing for the lake since the gill net ban.

Guides are too busy to get on this or any website and talk about their fishing, plus they like the free publicity. Its good for business!

["W"]

NO...I don't think so at all!

Rue was right there along side with me in Baton Rouge in favor of lower limits! So were the Stansels.

Poe was there too! He was against it though. But if you ask him now, he'll say it was the best thing for the lake since the gill net ban.

Guides are too busy to get on this or any website and talk about their fishing, plus they like the free publicity. Its good for business!


Chas if they think were hurting the trout why don't they close shop?

They were for lower limits...Hell why not!! Quicker limit less time on the water!!! Its like my boss telling me....Jeremy you work 25 hours and make 100 dollars but I think you should only work 15 and make 100 dollars..... Who the Hell would not agree.....

[adamsfence]

Chas if they think were hurting the trout why don't they close shop?

They were for lower limits...Hell why not!! Quicker limit less time on the water!!! Its like my boss telling me....Jeremy you work 25 hours and make 100 dollars but I think you should only work 15 and make 100 dollars..... Who the Hell would not agree.....



I think you need a new job thats like 4 dollars an hour:smokin:

[huntin fool]

I think you need a new job thats like 4 dollars an hour:smokin:


Ya know there is child labor laws so he caant get paid too much...Maybe his boss thinks he a child?? :p