Can't teach handling without FF which means using a collar. Dogs Must be FF and follow a program in order to progress to running Cold Blinds. No other way to do it and Water Dog is not a training program. Lardy/Graham each have training programs that explain each step. Any other way is just playing with the dog.

I understand there are limits to an ecollar....but I've never had to use one....I've trained a few gun dogs in my life and got a great one started... they all did what I needed and wanted them to do w/o a ecollar....prolly jus took me a little longer to get the desired result but got the result nontheless....trust me I'm not gonna put myself in a position to have a dog embarrass me in front of customers....all have had great blind/boat manners and picked up birds until I said stop....this pup is 5mos old and has 30 days left in the season....will continue the OJT...and then fine tune in the off season.....don't need to throw a rock in the fan now....thanks for the advise fellas!!