Originally Posted by fishinpox (Post 765804)

ok here my .02$

ive hunted in africa , i have first hand seen what hunter dollars do for the community, for conservation , and for education . if there is no monetary value placed on "game" then the locals will either 1) hunt the animal into extinction or 2) try to kill very last animal off that is seen as competition to their cattle and sheep . one of the areas i hunted in africa was once farm land and nearly all of the native game was wiped out by farmers UNTIL hunter dollars ( primarily U.S. hunter dollars) was pumped into this area so fences could be removed , native wildlife re introduced and MANAGED . it is all about the management . just this one area has had easily 20-30,000,000.00 dollars put into it by an american , not including all the money generated by hunters once it was made huntable again. the outfit i hunted with has started a CHRISTIAN school that is FREE or cost very little to have local children their, i have seen the school first hand and have made financial commitments to provide a christian education to a local girl my wife and i have adopted ...again hunter dollars going back into the community . for all the people that say i only shoot what i eat , ok thats fine that is your choice but again i have first hand experience watching every part of EVERY animal i shot in africa get eaten / used and for the most part get used by someone who is living in poverty like you could never imagine. Generally when "trophy" hunting the hunter is seeking a large animal , usually the largest ( horned )animals animals are also the oldest . but hunters shooting the oldest ( usually the dominant male) they are actually helping allow newer , younger blood to breed .
Now to talk about the way this animal was hunted ... people are complaining saying it was lured out of a protected area , maybe so BUT 99% of lion hunts are hunts invloving baiting a lion to come in so you can kill it , did the hunter know it was lured in from a national park ? who knows. ive read that this guy paid 55,000.00 for this hunt , i also know he is an avid hunter , this amount of a trophy fee usually goes along with a free range lion hunt not a high fenced hunt ( which most of the lion hunts in africa are but the fenced hunts a usually cheaper ) . now the tracking collar , did the hunter see it before he shot? if so shame on him , but i can see how it would be hard to see as that lion has a massive mane . the mane also points to something else , free range lions do not look as "pretty" or full maned as cecil does , they generally have more scaring on their face / body and the manes are not as full UNLESS if they are raised in captivity . did the hunter know this? again who knows, all i can do is speak from my personal experiences .

Originally Posted by Smalls (Post 765829)

Regardless of whether he saw the collar, the PH was arrested for not having a permit and no quota. The hunt was illegal.

Also, Dr. Palmer has been previously convicted of illegal hunting. Killed a black bear and then falsified where he killed it.

I'm not against these hunts. I am against dirtbags that give hunters a bad name. And this guy is starting to look like a dirtbag. Why did he try to say the bear was killed somewhere else? Why didn't he check to make sure the PH and farmer had all the necessary permits? What about that quota: could he have determined if there was a quota in that area?

Too many questions right now, but the fact that this guy has had issues in the past puts me off.

Originally Posted by Duffy.yyz (Post 765840)

I like how everyone on Facebook became exotic game extraordinaire over night...

Originally Posted by MathGeek (Post 765853)

It seems to me like the PH may have knowingly violated the law, but there has been no evidence to show that the American hunter knew his guide was setting up an illegal hunt.

Is an American angler breaking the law if he steps onto a guide's boat and the guide takes him to a spot that is in provate water and they are trespassing? I don't think so. There is a legal concept called mens rae.

Another example in American law would be a guide taking a customer to hunt waterfowl over a baited field. Should the customer be found guilty if the guide knew the field was baited but the customer was simply tricked by the guide?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Customers trust their guides to keep them in compliance with the local laws.

Originally Posted by Lake Chuck Duck (Post 765852)

These people, Ive seen more people all offended that a guy killed a lion on another continent than people that were offended that a muslim kills 5 of our soldiers on american soil. Just pisses me off.

Originally Posted by fishinpox (Post 765804)

ok here my .02$

ive hunted in africa , i have first hand seen what hunter dollars do for the community, for conservation , and for education . if there is no monetary value placed on "game" then the locals will either 1) hunt the animal into extinction or 2) try to kill very last animal off that is seen as competition to their cattle and sheep . one of the areas i hunted in africa was once farm land and nearly all of the native game was wiped out by farmers UNTIL hunter dollars ( primarily U.S. hunter dollars) was pumped into this area so fences could be removed , native wildlife re introduced and MANAGED . it is all about the management . just this one area has had easily 20-30,000,000.00 dollars put into it by an american , not including all the money generated by hunters once it was made huntable again. the outfit i hunted with has started a CHRISTIAN school that is FREE or cost very little to have local children their, i have seen the school first hand and have made financial commitments to provide a christian education to a local girl my wife and i have adopted ...again hunter dollars going back into the community . for all the people that say i only shoot what i eat , ok thats fine that is your choice but again i have first hand experience watching every part of EVERY animal i shot in africa get eaten / used and for the most part get used by someone who is living in poverty like you could never imagine. Generally when "trophy" hunting the hunter is seeking a large animal , usually the largest ( horned )animals animals are also the oldest . but hunters shooting the oldest ( usually the dominant male) they are actually helping allow newer , younger blood to breed .
Now to talk about the way this animal was hunted ... people are complaining saying it was lured out of a protected area , maybe so BUT 99% of lion hunts are hunts invloving baiting a lion to come in so you can kill it , did the hunter know it was lured in from a national park ? who knows. ive read that this guy paid 55,000.00 for this hunt , i also know he is an avid hunter , this amount of a trophy fee usually goes along with a free range lion hunt not a high fenced hunt ( which most of the lion hunts in africa are but the fenced hunts a usually cheaper ) . now the tracking collar , did the hunter see it before he shot? if so shame on him , but i can see how it would be hard to see as that lion has a massive mane . the mane also points to something else , free range lions do not look as "pretty" or full maned as cecil does , they generally have more scaring on their face / body and the manes are not as full UNLESS if they are raised in captivity . did the hunter know this? again who knows, all i can do is speak from my personal experiences .

Originally Posted by kcinnick (Post 765954)

Come to think of it, I have rarely hunted to eat, mostly nuisance hunting. I do have cool toys though and people think of me when it is time to eliminate some nuisance animals quietly or in high volume... all legal of course.

Originally Posted by fishinpox (Post 765714)

mine all started when i commented on a photo of a lion mount on my taxidermists facebook page , the antis saw my comment , researched that i was a business owner and bam they went to town . heres a pic of the lion my taxidermist mounted and cause me so much drama

Originally Posted by fishinpox (Post 765943)

Does anyone know they just cut the head off? That sounds like so non hunter explination . Surely they caped/ skinned the entire lion for a full body mount. Maybe they left the meat ? I would bet the trackers kept that meat . I watched my trackers fight over 2 day old organs / guts that sat in a bucket in the sun for 2 days prior so I highly doubt they just let it lay there. With that being said I'm leaning more and more to the animal was poached not hunted legally . Just not sure if hunter knew that going into it . You have to be a pretty big dumb arse to put up 55k for an illegal hunt when there are TONS of legal lion hunts available . Right now is one of the cheapest times to hunt a lion on private land because everyone is scared it will be banned . When I was there I could have shot one for 40k now the same hunt is 20k , my ph calls me 2 times a month trying to get me to come hunt a lion . African hunting is changing , between all the antis and all the game ranches I don't know what the future holds for hunting in Africa