In "W"s mind! :rolleyes:

Some worthwhile reading:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1306/pdf/c1306_ch6_c.pdf

http://www.masgc.org/pdf/bab/hmr/Hall.pdf

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d...kish_marsh.pdf

http://dnr.louisiana.gov/index.cfm?m...p=home&pid=297

Plant diversity and soil organic matter content are higher in brackish marsh than in salt marsh. Brackish marsh is typically dominated by Spartina patens (marshhay cordgrass). Other significant associated species include Distichlis spicata (salt grass), Schoenoplectus olneyi (three-cornered grass), S. robustus (salt marsh bulrush), Eleocharis parvula (dwarf spikesedge), Ruppia maritima (widgeon grass), Paspalum vaginatum (seashore paspalum), Juncus roemanianus (black rush), Bacopa monnieri (coastal water hyssop), Spartina alteriflora (smooth cordgrass), and S. cynosuroides (big cordgrass). Two other major autotrophic groups in brackish marsh are epiphytic algae and benthic algae. Generally speaking, vertebrate species population levels are higher in brackish marsh compared to Salt Marsh. Brackish marsh is of very high value to estuarine larval forms of marine organisms such as shrimp, crabs, menhadden, etc. (See Salt Marsh for other functions). Brackish marsh salinity averages about 8 ppt. This community may be changed to another marsh type by shifts in salinity. Intrusion of salt water from the Gulf of Mexico up numerous waterways exerts a major influence in the configuration of the various marsh types. from
http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d...kish_marsh.pdf

After some research, my view is that keeping the weirs open all the time is most likely trading good long term productivity of the brackish marshes they protect for increased short term productivity. The marshes behind the weirs need to be maintained as brackish marshes by keeping the weirs closed most of the time when salinity levels on the lake side are too high. If the marshes behind the weirs are allowed to change into salt marshes through increased saltwater intrusion, their potential productivity will be greatly reduced.

This is an area where it is clear that wildlife management is not a zero sum game. Wise management (protecting the brackish marsh) will maintain ecosystem productivity for years to come. Unwise management (keeping the weirs open) will provide higher satisfaction for a year or two or three, but is ultimately degrading a valuable natural resource that will hurt productivity.

The current management scheme of the weirs seems scientifically sound and data driven.

In a way it was...from a nature stand point
Good things from the storm were
#1 the marshes were getting over taken with water hyacinth's that had about 60% of the marsh choked up
#2 there was an over population of nutria rats destroying levees (none to be seen)
#3 there was and abundant fish reproduction (reddish mostly)
Mother nature will take care of herself and clean what needs cleaning
Hurricanes are part of life , we just happen to build houses in the path of these storms( nature don't care)

And this has what to do with the weirs and their operation?

U tell me?????:rolleyes:

In summary, the weirs could be opened now and produce fish. but it would impact the marsh and long term productivity would decrease.

Closing the weirs now, though having an initial impact will be better for long term productivity and health.

Are the weirs the only place to fish? Or is it the only place to fish if you don't have talent?

Ya know you guys could always come to Vermilion bay and catch hardheads...

Hell since they closed the weirs the parking lots have been light


.got to love that..... There are a ton of people who know nothing other than fishing weirs.....have no clue about the lake..... Just hope they don't start trying it out.....could be some damage coming

You sir, hit the nail on the head! :)

That is exactly what has been said throughout this thread. Countless times.

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Very true, but "W" catches on slowly because he already knows everything.

I think smalls need to change his name to smarts. :-)


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I have read through this entire thread, and Smalls, Duck Butter, etc.. ya’ll seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation and consequences of saltwater intrusion. I have to say Smalls you are pretty much on point with your synopsis. Prior to Rita, I worked for a private engineering firm that collected the data in that marsh. For almost 5 yrs i collected the data and serviced the the data sondes in the reserve, the main lake, mud lake, west cove, and sabine WMA (actually collected data from Breton Sound to Sabine). This by no means makes me an expert, as I was only a field tech that collected the data and handed it over to DNR. I do have a BS though, in Environmental Resources and a minor in Resource Biology.
My first thoughts after reading this is somewhat heartbreaking, as I too used to have access to the "private" areas...and can tell you the amount of waterfowl in that marsh was absolutely stunning. I am hoping that I am wrong in assuming (after reading these posts) that Rita pretty much killed all the fresh/brackish submerged vegetation that was so prevalent in that marsh. Make no mistake, the reason the ducks were in there was for the food. I have seen first-hand the results of storm surge (saltwater intrusion) on duck numbers, as our lease in PI sucked for years after Rita due to vegetation die off...
Second thoughts after reading this, is that I am glad many people grasp the overall picture and understand the importance of wetlands management. With all projects, there will be some narrow minded people are unhappy with what we are trying to do with resource management…Case in point, anyone remember the Caernarvon Freshwater diversion? Oyster fisherman were outraged and even filed law suits declaring their fishing grounds were “ruined.” Were they? Maybe in terms of oysters, but the fact of the matter is this area was returned to a beautiful marsh (and what it was historically) and land was actually “built up” from the sediment laden fresh water. In fact, the area has become a tremendous bass fishery.
Without these saltwater barriers, our coast line will continue to erode, as freshwater marsh becomes brackish, brackish marsh becomes salt marsh, salt marsh becomes open water. Waltrip, you work offshore, so by frequently flying over the coast I know you have seen first hand how much our marshes have eroded over the years (not trying to single you out, just trying to make a point to justify why those weirs are there). I have been in the oilfield 6 years now, and can tell you that it is quite depressing to see sooo much land disappear in such a short amount of time.
I won’t rant any longer, all I am going to say is that those weirs most definitely DO NOT support the Entire lake. They may obstruct some of the ebb and flow of food sources for the fishery, but in the long term they are there for the good of the entire ecosystem and surrounding watershed and marsh.

Cheers…

I will disagree that the marsh don't feed a big part of the lake..... Those two weirs support a huge roll in food and breading grounds for the lake....

And the reason it can is because of the fact that it is there. No weirs, no marsh. That point has been made time and time again. Whether you understand that is irrelevant. As has been stated, there are fish slots for fish to move in and out of the marsh through those weirs. Also as has been stated, the weirs are not closed indefinitely. They open when certain conditions have been met and on full moons.

I'm just curious what your issue is with the management of the weirs. Explain to me, with real evidence, what makes you think that marsh is healthy. And the fact that there are tons of fish, shrimp and crabs does not make it healthy. It has also been stated that shrimp and crabs feed on dead vegetation, which is an indicator of a less than healthy ecosystem. There is a good bit of that. Now I will tell you, there is a good bit of submerged aquatics in that area now, which is a definite improvement over what it was in many places a year ago.

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Well your fish slots you talk about are pretty useless when the lake is 3ft higher that the marsh....shrimp ,crabs and fish do not swim up a 3ft wall...and when tide is low you still have a 2ft drop

Red fish use this marsh to spawn and so do trout so by closing the weirs you blocking habits
Shrimp from that marsh feeds out with bait fish and the lower south end of the lake which NO bait is coming out with gates closed

Again we get back to habitat. Yes, that is important. And in the short term that is going to be negatively affected in terms of breeding. But the effect is not going to be as great as people think. Again, if you don't close those weirs, you further degrade the habitat, and you lose that breeding ground. Those species you listed all prefer grassy shallow water areas to lay eggs in. As I stated before, last year at this time, submerged aquatics were a myth in many marshes. Salinities were too high to support it, and in that area of the weirs, lake water was making the problem worse. If you have no submerged aquatics because of salinities, you have no breeding ground.

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Agreed Smalls. The entire marsh behind the weirs was the saltiest on record to say the least. Since the end of the drought there's been a huge improvement in the overall health of the marsh. Thankfully we have the weirs to thank by retaining some of this freshwater and guide it to the brackish/fresh marsh it was. If you're ever curious on the marsh salinity behind the weirs you can view near real time readings on this site. You click on the small icon that is in marsh behind the weirs and you can see for yourself.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/la/nwis/rt

Thought the lake was covered in bait? where did they come from if the weirs are closed and the marsh supplies the lake with majority of food?

:D

Weirs have been closed only 3 weeks...:shaking:

Long term time you will notice an effect

But all this rain I'm sure they will open back up this week or next

word

If that marsh supplies the lake with so much food, there should be more fish than water behind the weirs. That's not the case. Does it supply the lake with some of the food supply? Ok, I will give you that. But to say that that marsh is the sole support of the lake, is a huge overstatement. But maybe it is, and if that is the case, the clearly you are not concerned with the long-term good for the ENTIRE SYSTEM. Not just the fishery, but the ENTIRE SYSTEM. You are not going to maintain that marsh if you leave those weirs open all the time. It is not possible. It will not remain productive because it will convert to salt marsh, then mudflats, then open water, which is not good for the WHOLE. The only argument you have made this entire time is from a FISHERY stand point. Well, you can't maintain a FISHERY without HABITAT. That MARSH is the HABITAT for the FISHERY. You have made that point several times. Short-term sacrifice for long-term sustainability.

Yea the saltwater marshes by Hackberry are all mud flats and open water right??? Old BP marsh is open lake with mud flats????? Hummmmm seems to be lots of vegetation out there for open access to saltwater year round

marshes by hackberry? if you are referring to kelso bayou, then yeah it is slowly converting to open water due to saltwater.

also, old longpoint lake and surrounding marshes... converting to open water...

all due to saltwater intrusion... let nature take its course??? how about let the natural channel fill back in? we all know thats not going to happen...

First of all, if you are refering to Kelso Bayou, yes, that is a lot of mudflat and open water. Second, I did not mean or say that it would convert to that over time with no influence. What I meant by that was, if you have any disturbance such as a drought or hurricane, there is the potential to lose marsh which turns into mudflats. Mudflats then become deeper if plants do not recolonate the flats. In a salt marsh, when the flats get deeper, species cannot recolonate them because they cannot tolerate deep water as well as brackish or fresh species can. Thus you lose marsh and the only way to regain it is to go in with large scale dredging and filling projects. And FYI, Kelso Bayou is not a natural salt marsh. Salt marshes naturally occur close to the Gulf of Mexico in the majority of this region: http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d...salt_marsh.pdf

Looking at a map, there is one place that salt marsh "naturally" occurs, and I only say that because historically it was not salt marsh either.

ship channel was dug 1926.
we did't need weirs for 50 years.
now it's only thing that will save the marsh
we still loose coastline every year
leave the marshes alone. mother nature willbdo a better job man

This isn't an overnight process, it does take time. Remember there were cypress trees in the lake. It takes time to kill a cypress, but anyway I can drive down 27 to the coast and just look out there and see open mudflats and salt tolerant vegetation, its not a good thing, the weirs were put there to mitigate for the ship channel which allows saltwater to intrude into the system.

If nature was allowed to run its course and the ship channel would never be dredged again (bye bye Lake Charles industry), the ship channel would eventually silt in and the straight channels would eventually start to meander like natural streams do - there are NOT straight streams or rivers in nature, and it would take care of itself eventually but long after our generation comes and goes. Take into effect sea level rise (cough cough) and its not looking good, saltwater intrusion is probably the biggest threat to Louisiana, besides the current Preside..


And some parts of Louisiana are actually building coastline, the Atchafalaya Delta is productive marsh and grows every year. Just this past year Venice actually gained land from all the flooding and the diversions were opened to allow freshwater and sediment to flow. In our lifetimes we ain't gonna see the levees of the MS River come down, this is what is ultimately needed. One more Katrina event and maybe New Orleans people will realize there was a reason smart people don't build below sea level

Sabine lake has no weirs to block their bayous into the marsh. Not the same fisherie I know but still hasn't wiped out their marsh.

The Ship channel and land around it is going to be in great shape...They have rocks all the way down and are filling behind the rocks back up with dredge mud...

I wish they would build a rock wall about half a mile long around 9 mile or Wash out to break up big waves from ships

Yes, you're right, we do lose coastline every year. Got any idea of how much of that is due to loss of functioning deltas? I can tell you the only place in Louisiana that gains new land every year is the forming atchafalaya delta. Every other place has manmade interference. But that's a whole other discussion. Back to the weirs.

As myself and many others have continuously echoed, the weirs are man's way of making right what man did wrong by dredging that channel. Saltwater super highway. I've got plenty of papers and books that talk about this topic. Some of it interesting, some dreadfully boring, but all informative.

And as duck said, it takes time to see the effects of these things.

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All im saying is Yes...I see your Long term point to save the marsh....Thats fine..but to keep the weris closed over a long period of time will effect the lake , Long term im talking about 6 months to a year...
Hope we dont go in a dry spell for to long

here are some local marshes with no weirs

And your point is? Unless you know what you are looking at in those images, you can't tell if one marsh is fresh or brackish. It is not just a question of whether the marsh is there or not. Salt marsh is not as productive as brackish or fresh marsh. The marsh in the bottom right of that second aerial is salt marsh. Primary production is not nearly as high as in brackish marsh, and diversity is low.

Also, no one has ever said the weirs will stay closed for 6 months. There is no way, because the weirs are opened on full moons. Also, it is only closed when the salinities get to a certain level in the marsh.

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The weirs have been in
Place for how long.

1989. Do a quick Google search for Cameron creole watershed weirs and read the intro and purpose to some of those reports. 63000 acres of fresh and brackish marsh lost after the 30 ft dredging of the ship channel in the 1940s.

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I remember shrimping in big lake with my dad and catching 400 to 500 lbs of shrimp in a
weekend now you can't catch 400 shrimp in a weekend what's changed except blocking
the marshes off from their natural flow. Bottom line is shrimp and fish need the marsh to
spawn and develop in cut off the marsh and the lfe line to the lake..

Short term. Everything is not about the fish, I'm sorry. Everyone makes the point that the marsh is the lifeline of the fish and the lake. Ok, then understand that that marsh is only capable of supporting fish and shrimp because it is maintained. You caught 400 and 500 shrimp because the marsh was dying because of saltwater intrusion. That marsh was naturally fresh and brackish, not salt as a lot of it is now. As I have said repeatedly, the marsh is not shut off forever, just at times to keep the salinities where they should be to keep that marsh productive and supportive of the lake.

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Weirs will be open tomorrow morning at sun rise for 48 hours, just called in sick to work, yeah baby!!!! The recording said they had to let the fishies out the marsh, oh yeah!!!!

We are at the new moon, I believe the weirs are supposed to be opened for a certain time period around the new and full moon to allow for movement of the nekton between marsh and lake.

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W, this cat is takin' you to class. Pay attention.

If you call that taking me to school...what do you call it when I smash you in collage football knowledge

Really. That's the best you got. Sounds like a middle school come back. Lmao

does anyone have the 800 number to call??

1-855-532-9955

oh yeah...what you know about collage football

http://www.treasuredeventsofcharlott...Y_FOOTBALL.jpg

I didn't have the heart to do that.

63 THOUSAND ACRES:eek:!

That is what the weir is preventing.

Smalls knows what he is talking about and seems to be as much of an expert on the situation as there can be. He has been out there in THAT marsh trying to fix the problem that the ship channel and Rita caused. You do NOT want the marsh surrounding Big Lake to look like the marsh south of Leeville! Bye bye productive ecosystem, bye bye ducks, bye bye land!

Thats funny right there

anyone have the 800 number?????