Deity debate

[jchief]

Please feel free to debate it here.

[fonikoddity]

What is there to debate? The best informed decision is based upon some really really old books. What I don't understand is this: why is everyone so adamant about being right?


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[barbarian]

Originally Posted by fonikoddity

What is there to debate? The best informed decision is based upon some really really old books. What I don't understand is this: why is everyone so adamant about being right?


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My decision had/has zero to do with any really old book. I admit that I have spent time reading that really old library of 66 books from 40 different authors spanning over about 1500 years and the most recent being about 1900 years ago, but my decision on whether there is a god or not came before any of that reading ever happened. That moment was 15 years ago when God used an ordinary person at my job to reveal a couple of very important things that have changed my earthly and my eternal life forever

1. He loves me more than I can ever comprehend and He loved me just as much prior to my believing He was real as He does today 15 years later.

2. He wants me to love Him back just a hair as much as he loves me.

3. He wants me to understand that I am not perfect and that He knows that and because of that He sent Jesus Christ down to live a life here on earth and be a forever sacrifice for us. And all we have to do as acknowledge that gift and open that gift from Him to be considered part of His family.


Since that day, I have learned that I can not ever win the debate over whether God exist in the form we Christians believe. It just makes no sense to a nonbeliever. I know because I would debate you until the sun came up and down that it was all hogwash.

So I am not going to say any more on the topic and surely not debate it, but the bible had nothing to do with me changing my mind. It was a real experience and continues to be every day real experiences. I will close with 2 things

1. I don't have to be right. If I am wrong, it is over when I die just like you so in a weird way we tie. But if I am right, then there is no a tie at the end. So the believer doesn't have to be right, but the non believer better be right. We get so passionate sometimes about our belief because we have people we really care about and love that we are worried about them because we believe in the consequences of not accepting Jesus Christ. Sometimes we really really struggle with how to handle that concern for people we truly care about.

2. Don't worry about believing the bible, but focus on the life of Jesus Christ and figure out what you believe about his time on earth. His time on earth is believed as a real 33ish years by every historian and scholar - believers and nonbelievers. You have to walk away with believing something about Jesus

1. Are almost 99.999% of all historians wrong and a guy name Jesus from Nazareth really never lived? That it was all made up by people afterward to start a following in which all of them died trying to tell people.

2. Was he a pathological liar and scam artist because of all the things he claimed and all the things he did and said?

3. Was he psychotic in that he actually believed everything he was saying, but nothing was really true. It was all made up fiction stories?

*The challenge with 2 & 3 is even nonbelievers of his day and our day including all other religions say nothing but good things about him

4. Or could all of it actually be true and Jesus is who he claimed to be. Send from Heaven to be our sacrifice. That he died a brutal death as a sacrifice for us and then rose from the dead to once again be with The Father. Thousands claimed to have seen him after he died.

Maybe there is another scenario that can be believed, but I don't what it could be. I know that my first 32 years of unbelief was hung up on the bible, this mysterious God figure, and religious hypocrites. None of these actually matter. It is how you answer the question -

Who was Jesus Christ?

4.

[fonikoddity]

Originally Posted by barbarian

My decision had/has zero to do with any really old book. I admit that I have spent time reading that really old library of 66 books from 40 different authors spanning over about 1500 years and the most recent being about 1900 years ago, but my decision on whether there is a god or not came before any of that reading ever happened. That moment was 15 years ago when God used an ordinary person at my job to reveal a couple of very important things that have changed my earthly and my eternal life forever

1. He loves me more than I can ever comprehend and He loved me just as much prior to my believing He was real as He does today 15 years later.

2. He wants me to love Him back just a hair as much as he loves me.

3. He wants me to understand that I am not perfect and that He knows that and because of that He sent Jesus Christ down to live a life here on earth and be a forever sacrifice for us. And all we have to do as acknowledge that gift and open that gift from Him to be considered part of His family.


Since that day, I have learned that I can not ever win the debate over whether God exist in the form we Christians believe. It just makes no sense to a nonbeliever. I know because I would debate you until the sun came up and down that it was all hogwash.

So I am not going to say any more on the topic and surely not debate it, but the bible had nothing to do with me changing my mind. It was a real experience and continues to be every day real experiences. I will close with 2 things

1. I don't have to be right. If I am wrong, it is over when I die just like you so in a weird way we tie. But if I am right, then there is no a tie at the end. So the believer doesn't have to be right, but the non believer better be right. We get so passionate sometimes about our belief because we have people we really care about and love that we are worried about them because we believe in the consequences of not accepting Jesus Christ. Sometimes we really really struggle with how to handle that concern for people we truly care about.

2. Don't worry about believing the bible, but focus on the life of Jesus Christ and figure out what you believe about his time on earth. His time on earth is believed as a real 33ish years by every historian and scholar - believers and nonbelievers. You have to walk away with believing something about Jesus

1. Are almost 99.999% of all historians wrong and a guy name Jesus from Nazareth really never lived? That it was all made up by people afterward to start a following in which all of them died trying to tell people.

2. Was he a pathological liar and scam artist because of all the things he claimed and all the things he did and said?

3. Was he psychotic in that he actually believed everything he was saying, but nothing was really true. It was all made up fiction stories?

*The challenge with 2 & 3 is even nonbelievers of his day and our day including all other religions say nothing but good things about him

4. Or could all of it actually be true and Jesus is who he claimed to be. Send from Heaven to be our sacrifice. That he died a brutal death as a sacrifice for us and then rose from the dead to once again be with The Father. Thousands claimed to have seen him after he died.

Maybe there is another scenario that can be believed, but I don't what it could be. I know that my first 32 years of unbelief was hung up on the bible, this mysterious God figure, and religious hypocrites. None of these actually matter. It is how you answer the question -

Who was Jesus Christ?

4.

Someone's been reading Lee Strobel. I was just like you, and had a very real, whether to me or in an absolute sense, experience. I was an "inside man", if you will. I understand everything you're explaining, as it's very similar to the same rhetoric I orated in a VERY public forum.

However, no matter of faith (however great or small mine was) could ever make the math right. I dug deeper.

I realize that there are several archetypal things that we experience within our human condition, and it's easy for factions to form when folks believe like-minded stories or teachings that are aligned with their upbringing or previously held beliefs (or perhaps beliefs that fill a very real void).

I will never argue with anyone about their right to hold any belief, however silly I find it to be. I'm pretty much a dumbass most off the time, and I wouldn't expect anyone to believe anything, much less everything, that I think is true.

As for Jesus' life on Earth, I don't have a single problem with a third of the Holy Trinity coming and living among us, and ultimately dying to find a loophole for our complete depravity. My problem is believing what humans wrote about it.

On the bright side, if I'm wrong (although basic agnosticism can't really be wrong or right), perhaps I have fire insurance...?

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

-John 10:28-29 (KJV, none of that translated-from-arabic nonsense )

[barbarian]

Originally Posted by fonikoddity

Someone's been reading Lee Strobel. I was just like you, and had a very real, whether to me or in an absolute sense, experience. I was an "inside man", if you will. I understand everything you're explaining, as it's very similar to the same rhetoric I orated in a VERY public forum.

However, no matter of faith (however great or small mine was) could ever make the math right. I dug deeper.

I realize that there are several archetypal things that we experience within our human condition, and it's easy for factions to form when folks believe like-minded stories or teachings that are aligned with their upbringing or previously held beliefs (or perhaps beliefs that fill a very real void).

I will never argue with anyone about their right to hold any belief, however silly I find it to be. I'm pretty much a dumbass most off the time, and I wouldn't expect anyone to believe anything, much less everything, that I think is true.

As for Jesus' life on Earth, I don't have a single problem with a third of the Holy Trinity coming and living among us, and ultimately dying to find a loophole for our complete depravity. My problem is believing what humans wrote about it.

On the bright side, if I'm wrong (although basic agnosticism can't really be wrong or right), perhaps I have fire insurance...?

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

-John 10:28-29 (KJV, none of that translated-from-arabic nonsense )

Actually, not a big fan of Lee Strobel style of writing. I was just trying to find a way to put into words what happened to me. Religion makes it too complicated and its not.

All I know is what happened to me and at 32 years of age, this tiger lost his stripes and came home from work one day and was a different person than who went to work. My wife knew that night and my kids who were 5 & 3 knew something had changed enough to talk about it at day care where their sitter asked my wife what had happened to me. I left that morning a strong nonbeliever and came home knowing that God was real and something happened to me that I can't explain other than it was magical, miraculous, supernatural, etc. I believe because I feel beyond any shadow of a doubt that God revealed himself to be that day. It was a personal experience that had zero to do with anything that I read, heard or church. I know that from experience the more I try to explain my experience and Christianity that most will scoff even more so this is it for me on this topic. I do believe God gave me this story above to tell every so often. Just felt this was one of those moments. It is not to convince anybody of anything, but to give somebody out there a chance to hear a real life God moment that happened to me in todays time. It happens all the time to people all over the world. It doesn't make me better and definitely not perfect. And in some ways, it has made my life much more difficult.

If anybody would sincerely like to hear more details, shoot me a PM and we can meet for lunch or something.

[fonikoddity]

Originally Posted by barbarian

Actually, not a big fan of Lee Strobel style of writing. I was just trying to find a way to put into words what happened to me. Religion makes it too complicated and its not.

All I know is what happened to me and at 32 years of age, this tiger lost his stripes and came home from work one day and was a different person than who went to work. My wife knew that night and my kids who were 5 & 3 knew something had changed enough to talk about it at day care where their sitter asked my wife what had happened to me. I left that morning a strong nonbeliever and came home knowing that God was real and something happened to me that I can't explain other than it was magical, miraculous, supernatural, etc. I believe because I feel beyond any shadow of a doubt that God revealed himself to be that day. It was a personal experience that had zero to do with anything that I read, heard or church. I know that from experience the more I try to explain my experience and Christianity that most will scoff even more so this is it for me on this topic. I do believe God gave me this story above to tell every so often. Just felt this was one of those moments. It is not to convince anybody of anything, but to give somebody out there a chance to hear a real life God moment that happened to me in todays time. It happens all the time to people all over the world. It doesn't make me better and definitely not perfect. And in some ways, it has made my life much more difficult.

If anybody would sincerely like to hear more details, shoot me a PM and we can meet for lunch or something.

I sincerely believe that you sincerely believe this, and I celebrate the change in your life!

In the end, we should all just try to be a little better each day we're still here. Most days I'm an abysmal failure.

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by barbarian

Actually, not a big fan of Lee Strobel style of writing. I was just trying to find a way to put into words what happened to me. Religion makes it too complicated and its not.

All I know is what happened to me and at 32 years of age, this tiger lost his stripes and came home from work one day and was a different person than who went to work. My wife knew that night and my kids who were 5 & 3 knew something had changed enough to talk about it at day care where their sitter asked my wife what had happened to me. I left that morning a strong nonbeliever and came home knowing that God was real and something happened to me that I can't explain other than it was magical, miraculous, supernatural, etc. I believe because I feel beyond any shadow of a doubt that God revealed himself to be that day. It was a personal experience that had zero to do with anything that I read, heard or church. I know that from experience the more I try to explain my

experience and Christianity that most will scoff even more so this is it for me on this topic. I do believe God gave me this story above to tell every so often. Just felt this was one of those moments. It is not to convince anybody of anything, but to give somebody out there a chance to hear a real life God moment that happened to me in todays time. It happens all the time to people all over the world. It doesn't make me better and definitely not perfect. And in some ways, it has made my life much more difficult.

If anybody would sincerely like to hear more details, shoot me a PM and we can meet for lunch or something.

I don't know your story and won't claim to. I do know the exact moment that I realized God was really there and had given me something so special to show me he was there. It is a night I regret having ever caused but one I am also so very thankfull for. Even above my children I was shown a gift from God so special.

[fonikoddity]

That should stir the pot a bit, lol.


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[duckman1911]

I am most certainly not what anyone would consider religious by the normal standard. I can't remember the last time I stepped foot in a church unless it was a wedding or a funeral. I do believe in God absolutely. God may not be the same to me as it is for everyone. I see God when I hunt, when I look at the stars, when I think about how much of a gift my wife and children are. Is my belief the right one? I don't know and if it isn't I'll pay the price. I just know in my heart we didn't just appear without help. I love when an athiest brings up the big bang theory. I just ask them how that happened. Genesis says God created the heavens and the Earth. Didn't say how. Have never talked with an athiest that wasn't dumbfounded by that.

[duckman1911]

There are just things in life that show me god exists. Small things and simple things but not so small when you think about them. When you have extra and share you keep getting blessed with more. Your tomatoes are doing good so you give some to the elderly couple down the road that can no longer garden. Does it mean you'll be blessed with more tomatoes? No. But when you go out Saturday morning and that fish limit comes easy well ya just gota love it. Hens are laying good and you share and your tomatoes really start putting on. If you look it's there. Karma or God but who says karma isn't God's nickname?

[Mako19]

What does The Bible say about retaliation and "snitches"?

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by Mako19

What does The Bible say about retaliation and "snitches"?

Nice try Maco. Turn the other cheek. It also says an eye for an eye. I openly stated I would not consider myself a religious man by normal standards. Are you and pox neighbors by chance? Just a joke. Even God has angels to take care of not so pleasant things. Sometimes the balance needs to be reset.

[Mako19]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

Nice try Maco. Turn the other cheek. It also says an eye for an eye. I openly stated I would not consider myself a religious man by normal standards. Are you and pox neighbors by chance? Just a joke. Even God has angels to take care of not so pleasant things. Sometimes the balance needs to be reset.

I was just joking too, Duckman. It was just ironic to me that the first person to express their faith on this thread in 2 pretty lengthy posts was talking about "snitches get stitches" yesterday and "revenge is best served cold."

I am no Bible expert but I always thought that one of Jesus' main lessons he taught while on earth was forgiveness.

Even while being tortured and hanging on the cross one of the last sentences that he said was "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" about the men who murderered him.

Maybe I missed Sunday school the day Jesus was hanging from the cross and hollered, "SNITCHES GET STITCHES **+**ES! JUST WAIT UNTIL YOU GET SERVED YOUR COLD DISH OF REVENGE!"

Please explain how I am confused about this one Duckman...

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by Mako19

I was just joking too, Duckman. It was just ironic to me that the first person to express their faith on this thread in 2 pretty lengthy posts was talking about "snitches get stitches" yesterday and "revenge is best served cold."

I am no Bible expert but I always thought that one of Jesus' main lessons he taught while on earth was forgiveness.

Even while being tortured and hanging on the cross one of the last sentences that he said was "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" about the men who murderered him.

Maybe I missed Sunday school the day Jesus was hanging from the cross and hollered, "SNITCHES GET STITCHES **+**ES! JUST WAIT UNTIL YOU GET SERVED YOUR COLD DISH OF REVENGE!"

Please explain how I am confused about this one Duckman...

Not trying to start a fight with you by no means and if it came off as so I apologize.
I explained that I am not what most would call a typical Christian. I don't even go to church. I do believe there is a balance to be kept though. I know exactly what you are refering to and do I think that person would have made the same choice as an adult? No not at all. Some wrongs need to be righted though. Who's to say those spikes didn't teach him a lesson that later on saved his life? Not saying I'm right just saying some things happen for a reason no matter if we like it or not. Like I said earlier. Even God had angels for not so pleasant things.

[eman]

I respect your right not to believe in God. But you better pray your right.

[Dogface]

I truly believe in God and try to live a Christian life. Do I screw up, sure. If I am right I will spend eternity in heaven, if I'm wrong I am still enjoying life more than I was before I became a believer. If you are not a believer and you are wrong where will you spend eternity?

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by Dogface

I truly believe in God and try to live a Christian life. Do I screw up, sure. If I am right I will spend eternity in heaven, if I'm wrong I am still enjoying life more than I was before I became a believer. If you are not a believer and you are wrong where will you spend eternity?

True that. I believe and I'm wrong no biggy. Nothing happens. You don't believe and you're wrong. Well it sucks to be you. Not sayIng the way I believe is enough to do the job. If I'm wrong I pay the price.
It really gets me that the people that claim to be the open minded ones are the least open minded ones. Even if you don't believe how hard is it to leave someone alone in their beliefs as long as they aren't messing with you? Be athiest idk. Be gay idk. Just live your life and go about your business.

[redalertlures]

Debate...well I will chime in my dime...

Have a brother that has PHD in Theology...Ordained Southern Baptist Minister, another brother that is a Pentacostal Preacher and two nephews that are Pentacostal Preachers as well as a future wife that is highly devoted in our church...and my mother can practically quote 99% of the Bible....but all of these are not why I believe...
2 aircraft incidents, colon cancer stage 3 survivor, given 1 yr in 1997...have had multiple broken bones and ribs which should have resulted in death, two GSW's that could have easily been 6-12 inches higher...

Yes I see God in most everything...I do read my bible, but not nearly as much as any of the above mentioned do...I backslide daily, but I am reborn daily...

Every day is a gift, make no mistake...life is gone in the blink of an eye.

I was a Medic and Nurse for 29 years..I've seen many many "Miracles" in my time...I absolutely believe...but that doesnt mean I don't lose my faith and get mad at times too..
Hell, I have been with out a job for 4 months...have bills backed up and no way to pay them...I have to believe there will be a door opened for me soon...if I didnt I would go crazy...

Thanks for reading...maybe said too much, but it was my dime

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by redalertlures

Debate...well I will chime in my dime...

Have a brother that has PHD in Theology...Ordained Southern Baptist Minister, another brother that is a Pentacostal Preacher and two nephews that are Pentacostal Preachers as well as a future wife that is highly devoted in our church...and my mother can practically quote 99% of the Bible....but all of these are not why I believe...
2 aircraft incidents, colon cancer stage 3 survivor, given 1 yr in 1997...have had multiple broken bones and ribs which should have resulted in death, two GSW's that could have easily been 6-12 inches higher...

Yes I see God in most everything...I do read my bible, but not nearly as much as any of the above mentioned do...I backslide daily, but I am reborn daily...

Every day is a gift, make no mistake...life is gone in the blink of an eye.

I was a Medic and Nurse for 29 years..I've seen many many "Miracles" in my time...I absolutely believe...but that doesnt mean I don't lose my faith and get mad at times too..
Hell, I have been with out a job for 4 months...have bills backed up and no way to pay them...I have to believe there will be a door opened for me soon...if I didnt I would go crazy...

Thanks for reading...maybe said too much, but it was my dime

Where were the GSW's if you don't mind me asking. I'm no bible scholar and not pretending to be. As long as God gives you another day it's another chance. That I know in my heart.

[redalertlures]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

Where were the GSW's if you don't mind me asking. I'm no bible scholar and not pretending to be. As long as God gives you another day it's another chance. That I know in my heart.

one in hip and one in left glute muscle...both close to arteries...both during heavy fire....