Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[MathGeek]

The journal articles seem to conflict on whether or not cannabis is a gateway drug. It sure seemed to work that way for a number of my relatives as well as friends and acquaintances in high school. One day they are smoking a bit of pot, then down the road they are dropping out of school and impacted by the harder stuff.

Whether or not marijuana is truly a gateway drug for individual abusers, it does seem like libertarians are using it as a gateway drug in their legalization strategy: legalize cannabis now, then push for legalization of "harder" drugs later.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

The journal articles seem to conflict on whether or not cannabis is a gateway drug. It sure seemed to work that way for a number of my relatives as well as friends and acquaintances in high school. One day they are smoking a bit of pot, then down the road they are dropping out of school and impacted by the harder stuff.

Whether or not marijuana is truly a gateway drug for individual abusers, it does seem like libertarians are using it as a gateway drug in their legalization strategy: legalize cannabis now, then push for legalization of "harder" drugs later.

I agree that the journal articles are slightly conflicting, I view this as a natural result of attempting to "prove" that cannabis is not a gateway drug. There are always going to be associations between cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, meth, etc. Because a human being will possibly choose to imbide / use more than one of those at a time.

However what is clearly shown, is that there is no "gateway" from one leading to the other. In point of fact based on the study on alcohol, even though it has a much higher comparative rate of association between alcohol use and various "harder" drug use. The researcher correctly goes on to define that this is still not a gateway.

Additionally, I am not the libertarian party, I happen to call myself a Libertarian, and I happen to agree with most of their viewpoints. Earlier in this discussion we discussed the results of Portugals 12 years of de-criminalizing of all drugs, I stated then that a case could be made that this would be the way to actually go. If you choose to be results oriented then it's quite easy to agree with that, basically rates of addiction for all drugs (hard, soft) have dropped dramatically. Whether this was a combination of drugs becoming "uncool" & effective repairs to how the state systemically handled abusers... I don't know.

Before legalizing / de-criminalizing hard drugs here in the states, this certainly is an area which begs of more non biased study, to find out how best to minimize their use. While we are doing that, we should also be looking at / conducting studies on the current legal abuse of various opiate based drugs. I suspect that once we stop criminalizing drug use, once we address some of the systemic issues, once we have the government / free market undercut the dealers / cartel's money base we will see the same reduction in overall drug use as Portugal has in the last 12 years.

[Clampy]

Look you guys. Weed is so powerful and dangerous it even makes people who don't use it lose their minds.

Addictive

Cheeseburgers
Video games
Soda
Touching yourself
Etc.


Doesn't really matter. Marjuana isn't physically addictive but psychologically it is and so what. Fishing is addictive in those regards.

[hawgsquatch]

Originally Posted by Clampy

Look you guys. Weed is so powerful and dangerous it even makes people who don't use it lose their minds.

Addictive

Cheeseburgers
Video games
Soda
Touching yourself
Etc.


Doesn't really matter. Marjuana isn't physically addictive but psychologically it is and so what. Fishing is addictive in those regards.

You gotta point here.....and that is why invasive governmental bans on thought and activity should be resisted.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by hawgsquatch

You gotta point here.....and that is why invasive governmental bans on thought and activity should be resisted.

Darnit we need a like button on this forum!!!!!

[Clampy]

I have a friend who is a loser. Doesn't smoke pot but stays inside all day plays video games , smoking cigs and drinks red bulls. No job. People tend to never want to believe that a loser could be in their family or circle. If you chose to you can be addicted to anything.
I'd wish he get some help.

[southern151]

Well, I have to say that the debate has been a good one. My closing argument will be brief.

I do not condone nor, condemn the use of weed. Personally, I don't see what's any different about it than the beer I had last night, aside from the obvious(yes, I know and, knew before it was pointed out). There are two judges in life. One is in the court of law and, the other is waiting for my final day on Earth. I'm not either one so, I won't stand on a high horse and, think I know what everyone should do.

Since religion was brought into this debate, "Let he who live without sin cast the first stone."~Somewhere in the Bible.

If you drink or smoke, you should not be pregnant. You should not attempt to fly a 747. You should not try to complete your doctorate thesis statement and, you damn sure shouldn't try to drive. If you smoke, do like me when I have a beer, sit on the back patio and, just chill out. I won't judge you for it.

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

And it destroys you, just like heroin - use it once, next thing you know you will be blowing drug dealers for your next fix and developing sores all over your body, shortly followed by Hep and HIV.

Gtfo

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Goooh

And it destroys you, just like heroin - use it once, next thing you know you will be blowing drug dealers for your next fix and developing sores all over your body, shortly followed by Hep and HIV.

Gtfo

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

The courtesy levels on both sides of this argument have been less than spectacular as of late.

How about we lead the charge to change it back to a scientific discussion, rather than muddle the water by continuing the cycle of personal attacks?

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I would have hoped for a more polite response to a young lady and recently added SaltyCajun member.

"Gtfo." Wow! Can you get any more rude?

I can go cry to the owner and have the thread closed if it doesn't go the way I wanted.

Tell me how you know Miss is a lady? All his/her posts are on this thread, please let me know....

Interesting.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"Once absorbed, THC and other cannabinoids are rapidly distributed to all other tissues at rates dependent on the blood flow. Because they are extremely lipid soluble, cannabinoids accumulate in fatty tissues, reaching peak concentrations in 4-5 days. They are then slowly released back into other body compartments, including the brain. Because of the sequestration in fat, the tissue elimination half-life of THC is about 7 days, and complete elimination of a single dose may take up to 30 days. Clearly, with repeated dosage, high levels of cannabinoids can accumulate in the body and continue to reach the brain. Within the brain, THC and other cannabinoids are differentially distributed. High concentrations are reached in neocortical, limbic, sensory and motor areas."-Pharmacology and the effects of cannabis: a brief review

No argument here, This study basically shows scientifically that THC in cannabis causes people to get high (okay......) it also goes on to state that other cannabinoids compounds remain in the system for up to the 4-5 days listed. It's these other pharmacological compound that medical science is most interested in for their curative functions. However the non THC parts of cannabis do not have mind altering properties. So it really does not matter if they stay in your body for 4-5 days.

The compound THC may or may not stay in your body for 4-5 days (i'm not sure if it does or not) However it's high inducing ability most certainly does not stay in the body for that time period.

That's probably a good thing for drug dealers though, They would never be able to make money on a drug that kept people high for 4-5 days.

Earlier in this discussion we went into some depth on the prospective pharmacological benefits of these other cannabinoids.

Cannabis still remains as a non addictive substance which when consumed can cause a person to become high. However the person remains in complete control of their mind and body in making the decision to become high.

That means cannabis is no different than fishing / hunting / etc. it does not even have the physical addiction cycle of alcohol / nicotine. It's only commonality is that it promotes dependance.

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"In the USA and Australia, about 10% of those who ever use cannabis become daily users, and another 20–30% use the drug weekly."- Adverse effects of cannabis

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"In the USA and Australia, about 10% of those who ever use cannabis become daily users, and another 20–30% use the drug weekly."- Adverse effects of cannabis

okay, but recreational use of a drug with no demonstrable negative effects, as well as a few possible health benefits are in and of itself not an adverse effect of cannabis.

[MathGeek]

Get high, get stupid, get AIDS.

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Get high, get stupid, get AIDS.

She Got High, She Got Stupid, She Got HIV - YouTube

Does the science that we have gone over and you have objectively agreed to mean nothing to you?

I am 100% certain that you are completely aware that this is not a logical argument that you have just made, and am also 100% sure that it is purely an emotional one.

One could just have easily say "She ate Peanut butter, it made her happy, a serial killer then killed her because he hated happy people"

You can't have it both ways MG.... what is it going to be... Logic or Emotion?

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Does the science that we have gone over and you have objectively agreed to mean nothing to you?

I have posted the sound science showing that cannabis increases the incidence of risky sexual behavior, including sex with multiple partners and sex without condoms. Here's more:

Multiple studies suggest an association of marijuana use with increased rates of sexual risk behavior and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). - Associations of marijuana use and sex-related marijuana expectancies with HIV/STD risk behavior in high-risk adolescents

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I have posted the sound science showing that cannabis increases the incidence of risky sexual behavior, including sex with multiple partners and sex without condoms. Here's more:

Multiple studies suggest an association of marijuana use with increased rates of sexual risk behavior and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). - Associations of marijuana use and sex-related marijuana expectancies with HIV/STD risk behavior in high-risk adolescents

Documented study from a non biased source, indicating that even among homeless and runaway youth who were substance abusers. No correlation was found that they would not use condom's and thereby prevent HIV infections.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...54139X98000330

Additionally NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON in this discussion has indicated that they support governmental sales of weed to underage children. A couple people have attempted to make that accusation toward me, but I have clarified that my position is as follows;

Legalization and governmental regulations and controls would undercut the current money base of drug cartels and organized drug crime. I believe that it's very likely that not enough money will remain in underage drug dealing to make it a profitable venture for dealers. If we were to dedicate a small percentage of the police & enforcement cost of the "war on drugs" to putting pressure on dealers who would try to create an underage market. We could quite possibly make it a very unprofitable business.

[Clampy]

Check this out. Acting DEA head gets grilled.
http://t.co/IXNzkf25yz