How Soon is Too Soon

[Oops!]

Don't know what that is. I have trained 5 successful dogs. 2 for me and 3 for friends. Many trainers have different methods and mine have worked for the dogs I have worked with. But I have seen some dogs at 2 years old that still don't get. Don't know if it is the dog or how the owner trained them.

[Capt.B]

Last year I hunted my pup @ 4 months old...the first week he needed on the job training...lets just say it was a learning curve. After that he was balls to the wall with an occasional hiccup...Pretty impressive though.

[Shawn Braquet]

Originally Posted by Oops!

Don't know what that is. I have trained 5 successful dogs. 2 for me and 3 for friends. Many trainers have different methods and mine have worked for the dogs I have worked with. But I have seen some dogs at 2 years old that still don't get. Don't know if it is the dog or how the owner trained them.

Water dog book?

[Oops!]

I have read it. Train much the same way.

[Shawn Braquet]

Ought to look into Tom Quinn, and D. L. And Ann Walters books, they'll help with the "hand signals" otherwise known as casts. Hope this helps.

[Shawn Braquet]

And to the OP, I'm in the against bringing him crowd. To many potentials for a or many negatives. Take your time with it and enjoy the dog.

[D33]

My dog, was a genious at 4 months old in the blind. With lots of work and diligence....he still isn't "finished" this year will be be another go round, now over a year old. We will see what this season brings.

[Wag]

I agree with you Raymond about cream rises, it's starts in the pedigree

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Woodduck Commander

Hey guys, I have a new yellow lab I've been training, September 1st she will be 3 months old, I have another yellow lab that is 3 years old that my new lab follows like a shadow. I was thinking about bringing the pup out sometime during the second split to watch my trained dog work and get her used to cold and cold water. Too soon? or would that be a good idea?

depends on your pup and the training and what she can do. I don't like two dogs in a blind unless the training in both dogs are at the point that one will stay when the other dog is given their command to retrieve .... my 2 cents worth

[simplepeddler]

Wag I can't argue with you.
One thing I've learned is arguing about dogs and training is like arguing about religion.
BUT.......if I guy even has to ask the question about should his new dog be brought to the blind, blah blah blah........then I submit that he has not trained a finished dog in six months.

Just my opinion.......
What do I know, I hunt with a versatile breed...............LOL

[Wag]

Originally Posted by simplepeddler

Wag I can't argue with you.
One thing I've learned is arguing about dogs and training is like arguing about religion.
BUT.......if I guy even has to ask the question about should his new dog be brought to the blind, blah blah blah........then I submit that he has not trained a finished dog in six months.

Just my opinion.......
What do I know, I hunt with a versatile breed...............LOL

I agree ....

Originally Posted by Wag

I've had bird dogs that where fully trained, (point, back & retrieve) and hunting at 6 months...and have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better....just depends on the dog.

See quote above ......

You are right..... his dog is not a trained finished dog in 6 months, the dog is only 3 months old, he never stated his dog was finished. I stated, I have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better, I did say I had bird dogs, that would point, back, and retrieve and hunting at 6 months old.

I guess the best response to the person would have been an invite to a Retriever Club "Hunt" or ask to join a Retriever Club and get him involved in the sport and making him a better trainer....hell, he might be a great dog trainer as far I know and already be in a Retriever Club? Raymond knows nothing about me and what dogs I've been around ... The guy was asking for an opinion, help the guy out......I gave him my 2 cents worth, give yours. What type of breed do you have that is versatile, german shortair, lab, brittany....I've owned brittany's, pointers, english setters, labs, and golden retrievers, I love hunting dogs.

[Spunt Drag]

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

Is it triples now for dogs to earn "Finished" now? I know there is a diversion involved.

[Spunt Drag]

Originally Posted by Wag

Is it triples now for dogs to earn "Finished" now? I know there is a diversion involved.

Yes

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

That would probably never happen ....... I think your safe on the lunch

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

I have a couple that can handle it but they aren't 6 months old, I like the Darrel's Special without Mayo and japaleno chips and a Shiner Bock.

My standards are quite extreme, probably more extreme than most all hunt test trainers. I no longer run hunt test but that is where I started but became disolussioned with the pay your fees and get a ribbon mentality. My training has evolved over the course of 14 years, no different than trucks, tractors, and beer (I like beer). Dogs have also evolved to be smarter, stronger and more capable through the various breeding programs which incorporate the best of the field trial world. Every new training approach has come from the Field Trial world which has in turn been passed down through the ranks to Hunt Testers and lower level pros (me). To say there are numerous ways to train a dog is true but if fraugt with perils. I will follow the top Pros through the fires of hell because their programs have produced the best year after year. Consistancy is the name of the game in any sport or business endevor so why wouldn't you hitch your wagon to someone who is the best year in and year out? Horses are great modes of transportation but nobody would dream of saddling up and driving one to Kalifornia. Ask Braquet,Cajunforeman,Gerldat, if their ideas changed when they saw what can be accomplished by following a True Training Program and pushing the envelop. I will be training dogs long after those of you who only hunt them are done simply because teaching a dog to pickup a 300-500 yd mark or blind really turns my Crank. Bet it would turn yours if you did it too.

[geralddct]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a couple that can handle it but they aren't 6 months old, I like the Darrel's Special without Mayo and japaleno chips and a Shiner Bock.

My standards are quite extreme, probably more extreme than most all hunt test trainers. I no longer run hunt test but that is where I started but became disolussioned with the pay your fees and get a ribbon mentality. My training has evolved over the course of 14 years, no different than trucks, tractors, and beer (I like beer). Dogs have also evolved to be smarter, stronger and more capable through the various breeding programs which incorporate the best of the field trial world. Every new training approach has come from the Field Trial world which has in turn been passed down through the ranks to Hunt Testers and lower level pros (me). To say there are numerous ways to train a dog is true but if fraugt with perils. I will follow the top Pros through the fires of hell because their programs have produced the best year after year. Consistancy is the name of the game in any sport or business endevor so why wouldn't you hitch your wagon to someone who is the best year in and year out? Horses are great modes of transportation but nobody would dream of saddling up and driving one to Kalifornia. Ask Braquet,Cajunforeman,Gerldat, if their ideas changed when they saw what can be accomplished by following a True Training Program and pushing the envelop. I will be training dogs long after those of you who only hunt them are done simply because teaching a dog to pickup a 300-500 yd mark or blind really turns my Crank. Bet it would turn yours if you did it too.

Amen to that, program is need and follow it as it is the bible to dog training thanks to Ramond, by far is my dog hunt test material but will retrieve a 300 yard mark any day of the week. And I thank Ramond and cajunforeman for all the help and knowledge they provided.

[Spunt Drag]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a couple that can handle it but they aren't 6 months old, I like the Darrel's Special without Mayo and japaleno chips and a Shiner Bock.

My standards are quite extreme, probably more extreme than most all hunt test trainers. I no longer run hunt test but that is where I started but became disolussioned with the pay your fees and get a ribbon mentality. My training has evolved over the course of 14 years, no different than trucks, tractors, and beer (I like beer). Dogs have also evolved to be smarter, stronger and more capable through the various breeding programs which incorporate the best of the field trial world. Every new training approach has come from the Field Trial world which has in turn been passed down through the ranks to Hunt Testers and lower level pros (me). To say there are numerous ways to train a dog is true but if fraugt with perils. I will follow the top Pros through the fires of hell because their programs have produced the best year after year. Consistancy is the name of the game in any sport or business endevor so why wouldn't you hitch your wagon to someone who is the best year in and year out? Horses are great modes of transportation but nobody would dream of saddling up and driving one to Kalifornia. Ask Braquet,Cajunforeman,Gerldat, if their ideas changed when they saw what can be accomplished by following a True Training Program and pushing the envelop. I will be training dogs long after those of you who only hunt them are done simply because teaching a dog to pickup a 300-500 yd mark or blind really turns my Crank. Bet it would turn yours if you did it too.

I think you're preaching to the choir. I'm not the one who was disagreeing with you. I've seen plenty of dogs that can handle those types of setups too but they weren't 6 months old, so my lunch money is still safe!

[simplepeddler]

I have a german Wachtelhund.............

I know there are "some" dogs that can do all at six months......seen it.
But that is one in a 1000 labs I'de say.

You are right I should have offered my opinion. ..........I think she is too young.
I have also seen more puppies ruined by putting them in blinds with smoking guns that dogs trained at six months.

Look man, I respect the hell out of all the trainers, their indivicual methods and the committment it takes to get a dog passed.

I just see way way too many failed efforts of ametuers trying to live up to an expectation that is just too difficult to meet.

I have trained a golden, a boykin, a springer and now my wachtelhund (still)
I have had adequate dogs............functional for sure, polished not soo much.
With the boykin, the springer and now the wachtel.....it's not breeding. The genetics are there and that is why I have good solid dogs in the field.

I cannot stand seeing a dog with his head down and tail between his legs because he has been over stimulated by the collar, the hand, or the trainers mind.
Many of these CAN PASS and do PASS the trials, but they seem to me to hate doing it.
I would rather have a team mate then a slave any day.
Not implying you guys have those dogs at all. I have followed Raymond's threads and would feel comfotable with him trianing my dogs.

I am a huge fan of operant behavior training and somewhat follow Milner's methods.

Text rarely communicates well, so I mean do disrespect in any of these post at all.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by simplepeddler

I have a german Wachtelhund.............

I know there are "some" dogs that can do all at six months......seen it.
But that is one in a 1000 labs I'de say.

You are right I should have offered my opinion. ..........I think she is too young.
I have also seen more puppies ruined by putting them in blinds with smoking guns that dogs trained at six months.

Look man, I respect the hell out of all the trainers, their indivicual methods and the committment it takes to get a dog passed.

I just see way way too many failed efforts of ametuers trying to live up to an expectation that is just too difficult to meet.

I have trained a golden, a boykin, a springer and now my wachtelhund (still)
I have had adequate dogs............functional for sure, polished not soo much.
With the boykin, the springer and now the wachtel.....it's not breeding. The genetics are there and that is why I have good solid dogs in the field.

I cannot stand seeing a dog with his head down and tail between his legs because he has been over stimulated by the collar, the hand, or the trainers mind.
Many of these CAN PASS and do PASS the trials, but they seem to me to hate doing it.
I would rather have a team mate then a slave any day.
Not implying you guys have those dogs at all. I have followed Raymond's threads and would feel comfotable with him trianing my dogs.

I am a huge fan of operant behavior training and somewhat follow Milner's methods.

Text rarely communicates well, so I mean do disrespect in any of these post at all.

I agree with you entirely......

It all boils down to what you want with your dog, and how far you want to take the dog. I have no problems with people that use force, electronic collars, etc., never had to use that on my dogs, but it is what it is, it gets results when in the hands of someone or a professional like Raymond who knows what they are doing, and an electronic collar can sure mess a dog up for someone that doesn't know what there doing. IF I was running a dog in HRC hunts, I would definetly force break the dog to retrieve. I also have no problems with people that want to train a dog without those tools or methods. I have seen great dogs that where trained both ways. I like the HRC and what it does and stands for, and it certainly has helped the retriever breeds and their bloodlines. It gives all types of people, kids, women, and men an opportunity to work their dogs, get some help and education on training your dog, plus it's fun to watch, and at the same time have some good companionship with people that like to do what you do.