SD ammo

[swampman46]

I have a couple of 9mms, a Springfield XDm-9 and a Glock G-19. What self defense ammo do you guys recommend? I'm talking about in the home.

[duckman1911]

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrels are great bullets. They have out performed every bullet I have ever windshield tested. Passes through a windshield with no deflection and averages 14-16" of water penetration after the windshield. Its a bonded bullet so it stays together. Shot a 9mm 124grn from my buddies 16" barreled uzi to get more velocity. Through a windshield and 18" of water penetration. Recovered bullet weighed 123.7 grains.

[duckman1911]

Also. Remington Golden Sabre is the worst bullet I've ever tested. Winshield peels the jacket off of it. Also the only factory loaded ammo I have experienced a squib with. You dont want that in a gun fight. I havent tested their bonded version yet and probably wont. The squib load turned me off to their defensive ammo.

[MathGeek]

Speer Gold Dot is a very good bullet. We've tested them in gelatin over a range of velocities.

There are not many bad JHP 9mm bullets in the 115-127 grain weight range. We tested the 127 grain Winchester Ranger SXT a few years ago in Texas while consulting on a case. We went on to test several other Winchester Ranger SXT models.

I'm not a fan of 147 grain JHPs in 9mm. We've noted poor performance in both gelatin and deer. Others have noticed poor terminal performance against human attackers and goats.

We've done a lot of testing that isn't published, but here are a couple of our published reports that include some 9mm results of interest:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a576989.pdf

http://cds.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

There are some subtle distinctions between what home defense needs to do and what law enforcement ammo needs to do. A significant fraction of law enforcement shooting encounters present the need to penetrate auto glass or other challenging intermediate barriers and still perform well. I expect that penetrating auto glass is a rare requirement for home defense ammunition.

Some folks prefer more frangible ammo for home use hoping to achieve less lethality downrange, but interior walls won't stop many 9mm loads, even the frangible stuff. If possible, I think it is preferable for home residents to select loads with 10" to 14" of penetration in tissue without to much concern for penetrating auto glass and without fantasies of bullets not endangering other residents through interior walls.

Understand basic safe room concepts, consider safe shooting angles beforehand with due consideration to wall penetration, and try and have a plan that minimizes the chance of having to move around a home while armed searching for an intruder. Your odds are overwhelmingly greater if you let the bad guy come to you, especially if he is entering a dark room fully exposed, and the good guys are shooting from behind cover. I kinda like a low shooting position for home defense. Bad guys are not focused on threats from that direction, and bullets travelling upward present less downrange risk.

[jchief]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Speer Gold Dot is a very good bullet. We've tested them in gelatin over a range of velocities.

There are not many bad JHP 9mm bullets in the 115-127 grain weight range. We tested the 127 grain Winchester Ranger SXT a few years ago in Texas while consulting on a case. We went on to test several other Winchester Ranger SXT models.

I'm not a fan of 147 grain JHPs in 9mm. We've noted poor performance in both gelatin and deer. Others have noticed poor terminal performance against human attackers and goats.

We've done a lot of testing that isn't published, but here are a couple of our published reports that include some 9mm results of interest:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a576989.pdf

http://cds.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

There are some subtle distinctions between what home defense needs to do and what law enforcement ammo needs to do. A significant fraction of law enforcement shooting encounters present the need to penetrate auto glass or other challenging intermediate barriers and still perform well. I expect that penetrating auto glass is a rare requirement for home defense ammunition.

Some folks prefer more frangible ammo for home use hoping to achieve less lethality downrange, but interior walls won't stop many 9mm loads, even the frangible stuff. If possible, I think it is preferable for home residents to select loads with 10" to 14" of penetration in tissue without to much concern for penetrating auto glass and without fantasies of bullets not endangering other residents through interior walls.

Understand basic safe room concepts, consider safe shooting angles beforehand with due consideration to wall penetration, and try and have a plan that minimizes the chance of having to move around a home while armed searching for an intruder. Your odds are overwhelmingly greater if you let the bad guy come to you, especially if he is entering a dark room fully exposed, and the good guys are shooting from behind cover. I kinda like a low shooting position for home defense. Bad guys are not focused on threats from that direction, and bullets travelling upward present less downrange risk.

Ok, I agree with the idea of knowing where the bullet is going before pulling the trigger.

What ammo, based on your studies, would you recommend for personal protection in 9mm?

[duckman1911]

Inside the house nothing trumps a 12ga loaded with #4 birdshot.
Hey MG my tests werent intended to be all that scientific. It was just a set standard to campare different bullets. The Ranger SXT is a great bullet. Same as the Black Talon just without the color. Its the kinder gentler talon.lol. A buddy of mine shot a guy with one. This dude was 300lbs and the bullet exited completely. It was found lodged in the stove.
The only difference between the Ranger SXT and its nonranger cousin is the standard SXT has 6 petals versus the 8 the Ranger has.

[Jordan]

This website might help out a little...

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgist...o.html&setup=1

[Matt G]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Speer Gold Dot is a very good bullet. We've tested them in gelatin over a range of velocities.

There are not many bad JHP 9mm bullets in the 115-127 grain weight range. We tested the 127 grain Winchester Ranger SXT a few years ago in Texas while consulting on a case. We went on to test several other Winchester Ranger SXT models.

I'm not a fan of 147 grain JHPs in 9mm. We've noted poor performance in both gelatin and deer. Others have noticed poor terminal performance against human attackers and goats.

We've done a lot of testing that isn't published, but here are a couple of our published reports that include some 9mm results of interest:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a576989.pdf

http://cds.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

There are some subtle distinctions between what home defense needs to do and what law enforcement ammo needs to do. A significant fraction of law enforcement shooting encounters present the need to penetrate auto glass or other challenging intermediate barriers and still perform well. I expect that penetrating auto glass is a rare requirement for home defense ammunition.

Some folks prefer more frangible ammo for home use hoping to achieve less lethality downrange, but interior walls won't stop many 9mm loads, even the frangible stuff. If possible, I think it is preferable for home residents to select loads with 10" to 14" of penetration in tissue without to much concern for penetrating auto glass and without fantasies of bullets not endangering other residents through interior walls.

Understand basic safe room concepts, consider safe shooting angles beforehand with due consideration to wall penetration, and try and have a plan that minimizes the chance of having to move around a home while armed searching for an intruder. Your odds are overwhelmingly greater if you let the bad guy come to you, especially if he is entering a dark room fully exposed, and the good guys are shooting from behind cover. I kinda like a low shooting position for home defense. Bad guys are not focused on threats from that direction, and bullets travelling upward present less downrange risk.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that chuckled at this sentence! Seriously though, it sounds like you got paid to have a lot of fun.

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by Matt G

Please tell me I'm not the only one that chuckled at this sentence! Seriously though, it sounds like you got paid to have a lot of fun.

I dont know what a pistol will do to a goat but I now what an AR with 60grn softpoints will do.
That was the first and last time he ate leaves off of my satsuma tree.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by jchief

Ok, I agree with the idea of knowing where the bullet is going before pulling the trigger.

What ammo, based on your studies, would you recommend for personal protection in 9mm?

There are a lot of bullets out there which will optimize the 9mm's potential in a wide variety of situations. For many years, my wife and I both carried the 115 grain Quik Shok, but the company that made them went out of business.

Without knowing the details of an individual risk assessment, I'd say that the 127 Win Ranger SXT is a good choice. There are some lighter JHPs with more fragmentation that might be a better choice against lightly clad meth head types. There are also some bonded bullets that are better against intermediate barriers. There's very little not to like about the 115-125 grain Federal and Speer God Dot offerings in their premium self-defense loads.

I do not recommend FMJ or 147 grain JHP bullets for most defensive uses in 9mm. We did kill 2 deer with one shot once with a 147 grain JHP, but lack of expansion and overpenetration is a persistent problem here. The deer in front ran over 200 yards before it fell even though it was a perfect double lung center punch. In contrast, deer center punched with a 115 grain JHP (Quik Shok) averaged under 50 yards, with none going further than 100 yards.

[swampman46]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Speer Gold Dot is a very good bullet. We've tested them in gelatin over a range of velocities.

There are not many bad JHP 9mm bullets in the 115-127 grain weight range. We tested the 127 grain Winchester Ranger SXT a few years ago in Texas while consulting on a case. We went on to test several other Winchester Ranger SXT models.

I'm not a fan of 147 grain JHPs in 9mm. We've noted poor performance in both gelatin and deer. Others have noticed poor terminal performance against human attackers and goats.

We've done a lot of testing that isn't published, but here are a couple of our published reports that include some 9mm results of interest:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a576989.pdf

http://cds.cern.ch/record/1016662/files/0702107.pdf

There are some subtle distinctions between what home defense needs to do and what law enforcement ammo needs to do. A significant fraction of law enforcement shooting encounters present the need to penetrate auto glass or other challenging intermediate barriers and still perform well. I expect that penetrating auto glass is a rare requirement for home defense ammunition.

Some folks prefer more frangible ammo for home use hoping to achieve less lethality downrange, but interior walls won't stop many 9mm loads, even the frangible stuff. If possible, I think it is preferable for home residents to select loads with 10" to 14" of penetration in tissue without to much concern for penetrating auto glass and without fantasies of bullets not endangering other residents through interior walls.

Understand basic safe room concepts, consider safe shooting angles beforehand with due consideration to wall penetration, and try and have a plan that minimizes the chance of having to move around a home while armed searching for an intruder. Your odds are overwhelmingly greater if you let the bad guy come to you, especially if he is entering a dark room fully exposed, and the good guys are shooting from behind cover. I kinda like a low shooting position for home defense. Bad guys are not focused on threats from that direction, and bullets travelling upward present less downrange risk.

Excellent points you bring up. How does Hornady Critical Defense rate? And on a side note, with all this said, (and I know I'm a little off course here), I received free Hornady 115 gr XTPs last year with my reloading equipment. How do these stack up against factory SD rounds assuming about the same velocity?

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by swampman46

Excellent points you bring up. How does Hornady Critical Defense rate? And on a side note, with all this said, (and I know I'm a little off course here), I received free Hornady 115 gr XTPs last year with my reloading equipment. How do these stack up against factory SD rounds assuming about the same velocity?

XTP's are good bullets but I would recommend using only factory loaded ammo for SD purposes. You dont want to give any leverage to a lawyer by using hand loaded ammo. Its easy for them to claim you loaded em extra deadly. Ignorant people on the jury just may believe it too.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by swampman46

Excellent points you bring up. How does Hornady Critical Defense rate? And on a side note, with all this said, (and I know I'm a little off course here), I received free Hornady 115 gr XTPs last year with my reloading equipment. How do these stack up against factory SD rounds assuming about the same velocity?

We haven't tested the Hornady Critical Defense, but we do tend to believe that gelatin testing of handgun bullets is reliable when performed by major ammunition companies and government agencies in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin. I recommend looking at the energy and gelatin test data and see if the bullet is performing as you would like.

Nor have we tested the 115 grain XTP in gelatin or deer. XTPs have always been our "go-to" bullet for obtaining quick accuracy with just about any gun and powder. If some other combination wasn't providing accuracy, the XTP would quickly determine that it was not the gun or powder that was the problem. We have tested other weights and calibers of XTP in deer and it they always performed well with a nice combination of penetration and reliable expansion, with faster velocities giving more expansion, and slower velocities giving more penetration.

My concern with handloads is more functional than legal. Most prosecutors will never even know what exact ammo you used unless you tell them. Any ballistic lab results will trail far behind their decision to prosecute or not. Lawyer up quickly and say nothing except what your lawyer approves, focusing on the fact that your decision to shoot was based on your life and the life of your family being in imminent danger, and provide the facts you observed to determine the risk. Handloaded pistol rounds are simply much less reliable than good factory loads. Use good factory loads for self-defense, because they feed and function more reliably than most hand loads.

[duckman1911]

No matter what your choice is there is no bullet that will make up for a lack of shooting skills. Being proficient with your weapon is #1. I promise you a 22 bullet through the left eye is as convincing as a 44 mag to the chest. Back when I shot pistol competitions we had a saying. YOU CAN'T MISS FAST ENOUGH TO WIN.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

No matter what your choice is there is no bullet that will make up for a lack of shooting skills. Being proficient with your weapon is #1. I promise you a 22 bullet through the left eye is as convincing as a 44 mag to the chest. Back when I shot pistol competitions we had a saying. YOU CAN'T MISS FAST ENOUGH TO WIN.

Yep. Practice, practice, practice. I never had to use a pistol in self-defense, but I did slay a few groundhogs, deer, coons, and rabbits back when I was a farmer in Ohio. My best shot ever was a varmint at 200 yards. I tried not to look too surprised when I hit it.

It takes most people several thousand rounds to become proficient with a handgun. A certain level of proficiency can be maintained with several hundred rounds per year during times of tight ammo supply, especially if supplemented with ample dry firing work and work with a decent air pistol.

[duckman1911]

Thats a great shot MG. What did tou dink him with?
Breaking a skeet with my Glock 23 at 75 yrds is my longest pistol shot. The skeet was on a stationary target stand not flying.lol.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

Thats a great shot MG. What did tou dink him with?
Breaking a skeet with my Glock 23 at 75 yrds is my longest pistol shot. The skeet was on a stationary target stand not flying.lol.

I thought someone might ask, so I've been trying to remember. Best recollection is a Sig P229 with a Federal Premium JHP. It was my standard for carry on the farm back in those days. That load was very effective in deer too. I had a nuisance wildlife damage control permit from the Division of Wildlife that gave me a "license to kill" nuisance deer all summer long. It would happen pretty fast: deer, draw, bang, drag...

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I thought someone might ask, so I've been trying to remember. Best recollection is a Sig P229 with a Federal Premium JHP. It was my standard for carry on the farm back in those days. That load was very effective in deer too. I had a nuisance wildlife damage control permit from the Division of Wildlife that gave me a "license to kill" nuisance deer all summer long. It would happen pretty fast: deer, draw, bang, drag...

Nothing wrong with that bro. I never cared much for Sigs. Im not knocking your choice so dont take it wrong. Sig makes some fine weapons. I just never cared for a DA/SA gun. I personaly like the same trigger pull everytime. Sig may make a SA or DA only model and im not aware of it.
200 yards with a 229 is impressive. Good for you bro. Keep knocking em down man

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

Nothing wrong with that bro. I never cared much for Sigs. Im not knocking your choice so dont take it wrong. Sig makes some fine weapons. I just never cared for a DA/SA gun. I personaly like the same trigger pull everytime. Sig may make a SA or DA only model and im not aware of it.
200 yards with a 229 is impressive. Good for you bro. Keep knocking em down man

There is a definite transition. I would usually **** the hammer manually for varmint shots. My first shot is not generally as accurate as the follow-ups due to the DA/SA thing. But the SA is awesome once you get there.

[duckman1911]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

There is a definite transition. I would usually **** the hammer manually for varmint shots. My first shot is not generally as accurate as the follow-ups due to the DA/SA thing. But the SA is awesome once you get there.

You got c o c k blocked by SC.