How Soon is Too Soon

[Shawn Braquet]

And to the OP, I'm in the against bringing him crowd. To many potentials for a or many negatives. Take your time with it and enjoy the dog.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Shawn Braquet

Raymond in 3....2....1.....

Way too easy Shawn. Sometimes it's better to not call attention to ignorance.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by simplepeddler

"fully trained at 6 months" really??

that's remarkable.

I've had bird dogs that where fully trained, (point, back & retrieve) and hunting at 6 months...and have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better....just depends on the dog.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Wag

I've had bird dogs that where fully trained, (point, back & retrieve) and hunting at 6 months...and have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better....just depends on the dog.

Please define Finished?

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Please define Finished?

Knows all the commands, and on hand signals, if you train retrievers you know what finish is.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Wag

Knows all the commands, and on hand signals, if you train retrievers you know what finish is.

Put my hands on over a hundred and never have or will have a finished dog at 6 months. What y'all are calling hand signals is actually cast and it can't be solid until a dog is force fetched and that can't be done until a dog is atleast 6 months old. I'll wager a months pay your finished dogs are little more than backyard hounds that would have trouble with any Mark over 40 yds or blind past 25 yds. The next post will start out with,"I don't want no field trial dog or robot" but how many field trial dogs have you hunted with and how many field trials have you ever been to? Hunt test don't count since they aren't field trials. All competent dog trainers follow the same program that creates field trial dogs, cream rises. What people know and what people think they know separates those who can get the job done and succeed year after year and 5 dogs ain't gonna make you a trainer. Bring your dogs and sack of money any Saturday and we will find out how much training they have. PM me for address and time.

[D33]

My dog, was a genious at 4 months old in the blind. With lots of work and diligence....he still isn't "finished" this year will be be another go round, now over a year old. We will see what this season brings.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Put my hands on over a hundred and never have or will have a finished dog at 6 months. What y'all are calling hand signals is actually cast and it can't be solid until a dog is force fetched and that can't be done until a dog is atleast 6 months old. I'll wager a months pay your finished dogs are little more than backyard hounds that would have trouble with any Mark over 40 yds or blind past 25 yds. The next post will start out with,"I don't want no field trial dog or robot" but how many field trial dogs have you hunted with and how many field trials have you ever been to? Hunt test don't count since they aren't field trials. All competent dog trainers follow the same program that creates field trial dogs, cream rises. What people know and what people think they know separates those who can get the job done and succeed year after year and 5 dogs ain't gonna make you a trainer. Bring your dogs and sack of money any Saturday and we will find out how much training they have. PM me for address and time.

I am 58 years old, been to more field trials than you have probably been to, both bird dogs and retrievers, Omar Driskal was training a Golden for me when he was putting together the HRC which you are probably running your dogs in today. The first dog that Barry Lyons hunted over that was trained was mine when we where in high school back in 1969 and I have alot of friends that own and hunt Grand Champions....I don't own any more hunting dogs, those days are gone. Second, I didn't train dogs professionally. I owned hunting dogs, bird dogs and retrievers, I trained my bird dogs, and I trained my retrievers, but that was before the HRC was formed, and before running dogs in hunting tests was a popular thing to do, even though the AKC had trials at that time but was not a hunting favored test like the HRC, or what Omar game up with. If I had a trained dog at this time I would be more than happy to take you up on your offer, however I do have a friend that has a 7 month old lab that is forced, and "taking casts" if you really want to lose some money. Call Robert Andries, and ask him about Jimmy's dog "Bone". Time, anytime, place here, 2765 Parhams Road, Jonesville, La.

[Wag]

I agree with you Raymond about cream rises, it's starts in the pedigree

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Woodduck Commander

Hey guys, I have a new yellow lab I've been training, September 1st she will be 3 months old, I have another yellow lab that is 3 years old that my new lab follows like a shadow. I was thinking about bringing the pup out sometime during the second split to watch my trained dog work and get her used to cold and cold water. Too soon? or would that be a good idea?

depends on your pup and the training and what she can do. I don't like two dogs in a blind unless the training in both dogs are at the point that one will stay when the other dog is given their command to retrieve .... my 2 cents worth

[simplepeddler]

Wag I can't argue with you.
One thing I've learned is arguing about dogs and training is like arguing about religion.
BUT.......if I guy even has to ask the question about should his new dog be brought to the blind, blah blah blah........then I submit that he has not trained a finished dog in six months.

Just my opinion.......
What do I know, I hunt with a versatile breed...............LOL

[Feesherman]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Put my hands on over a hundred and never have or will have a finished dog at 6 months. What y'all are calling hand signals is actually cast and it can't be solid until a dog is force fetched and that can't be done until a dog is atleast 6 months old. I'll wager a months pay your finished dogs are little more than backyard hounds that would have trouble with any Mark over 40 yds or blind past 25 yds. The next post will start out with,"I don't want no field trial dog or robot" but how many field trial dogs have you hunted with and how many field trials have you ever been to? Hunt test don't count since they aren't field trials. All competent dog trainers follow the same program that creates field trial dogs, cream rises. What people know and what people think they know separates those who can get the job done and succeed year after year and 5 dogs ain't gonna make you a trainer. Bring your dogs and sack of money any Saturday and we will find out how much training they have. PM me for address and time.

Amen!! Ain't no such thing as a finished dog at 6 months. Can't even force fetch until there adult teeth are in.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by simplepeddler

Wag I can't argue with you.
One thing I've learned is arguing about dogs and training is like arguing about religion.
BUT.......if I guy even has to ask the question about should his new dog be brought to the blind, blah blah blah........then I submit that he has not trained a finished dog in six months.

Just my opinion.......
What do I know, I hunt with a versatile breed...............LOL

I agree ....

Originally Posted by Wag

I've had bird dogs that where fully trained, (point, back & retrieve) and hunting at 6 months...and have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better....just depends on the dog.

See quote above ......

You are right..... his dog is not a trained finished dog in 6 months, the dog is only 3 months old, he never stated his dog was finished. I stated, I have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better, I did say I had bird dogs, that would point, back, and retrieve and hunting at 6 months old.

I guess the best response to the person would have been an invite to a Retriever Club "Hunt" or ask to join a Retriever Club and get him involved in the sport and making him a better trainer....hell, he might be a great dog trainer as far I know and already be in a Retriever Club? Raymond knows nothing about me and what dogs I've been around ... The guy was asking for an opinion, help the guy out......I gave him my 2 cents worth, give yours. What type of breed do you have that is versatile, german shortair, lab, brittany....I've owned brittany's, pointers, english setters, labs, and golden retrievers, I love hunting dogs.

[Spunt Drag]

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

Is it triples now for dogs to earn "Finished" now? I know there is a diversion involved.

[Spunt Drag]

Originally Posted by Wag

Is it triples now for dogs to earn "Finished" now? I know there is a diversion involved.

Yes

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Yes

That's the HRC Finished Hunt Test? Triples and over 300 yards?

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Spunt Drag

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

That would probably never happen ....... I think your safe on the lunch

[simplepeddler]

I have a german Wachtelhund.............

I know there are "some" dogs that can do all at six months......seen it.
But that is one in a 1000 labs I'de say.

You are right I should have offered my opinion. ..........I think she is too young.
I have also seen more puppies ruined by putting them in blinds with smoking guns that dogs trained at six months.

Look man, I respect the hell out of all the trainers, their indivicual methods and the committment it takes to get a dog passed.

I just see way way too many failed efforts of ametuers trying to live up to an expectation that is just too difficult to meet.

I have trained a golden, a boykin, a springer and now my wachtelhund (still)
I have had adequate dogs............functional for sure, polished not soo much.
With the boykin, the springer and now the wachtel.....it's not breeding. The genetics are there and that is why I have good solid dogs in the field.

I cannot stand seeing a dog with his head down and tail between his legs because he has been over stimulated by the collar, the hand, or the trainers mind.
Many of these CAN PASS and do PASS the trials, but they seem to me to hate doing it.
I would rather have a team mate then a slave any day.
Not implying you guys have those dogs at all. I have followed Raymond's threads and would feel comfotable with him trianing my dogs.

I am a huge fan of operant behavior training and somewhat follow Milner's methods.

Text rarely communicates well, so I mean do disrespect in any of these post at all.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by simplepeddler

I have a german Wachtelhund.............

I know there are "some" dogs that can do all at six months......seen it.
But that is one in a 1000 labs I'de say.

You are right I should have offered my opinion. ..........I think she is too young.
I have also seen more puppies ruined by putting them in blinds with smoking guns that dogs trained at six months.

Look man, I respect the hell out of all the trainers, their indivicual methods and the committment it takes to get a dog passed.

I just see way way too many failed efforts of ametuers trying to live up to an expectation that is just too difficult to meet.

I have trained a golden, a boykin, a springer and now my wachtelhund (still)
I have had adequate dogs............functional for sure, polished not soo much.
With the boykin, the springer and now the wachtel.....it's not breeding. The genetics are there and that is why I have good solid dogs in the field.

I cannot stand seeing a dog with his head down and tail between his legs because he has been over stimulated by the collar, the hand, or the trainers mind.
Many of these CAN PASS and do PASS the trials, but they seem to me to hate doing it.
I would rather have a team mate then a slave any day.
Not implying you guys have those dogs at all. I have followed Raymond's threads and would feel comfotable with him trianing my dogs.

I am a huge fan of operant behavior training and somewhat follow Milner's methods.

Text rarely communicates well, so I mean do disrespect in any of these post at all.

I agree with you entirely......

It all boils down to what you want with your dog, and how far you want to take the dog. I have no problems with people that use force, electronic collars, etc., never had to use that on my dogs, but it is what it is, it gets results when in the hands of someone or a professional like Raymond who knows what they are doing, and an electronic collar can sure mess a dog up for someone that doesn't know what there doing. IF I was running a dog in HRC hunts, I would definetly force break the dog to retrieve. I also have no problems with people that want to train a dog without those tools or methods. I have seen great dogs that where trained both ways. I like the HRC and what it does and stands for, and it certainly has helped the retriever breeds and their bloodlines. It gives all types of people, kids, women, and men an opportunity to work their dogs, get some help and education on training your dog, plus it's fun to watch, and at the same time have some good companionship with people that like to do what you do.