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  #1  
Old 05-17-2014, 03:36 PM
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Default fastest stock 50hp motor to buy

I hear a lot of talk about tohatsu motors being very fast but the 4 strokes weight the same as the 2 strokes and are both models equally as fast? also which one is better and why.

also are there other motors that are just as fast or for that matter just better motors overall if not as fast?

I think I need a new motor and wanted to know where to begin searching for a replacement for a 17x52 flatboard motor in the 50hp size (max rated) and I want to get over 30mph top end, hopefully 35-40mph

as I understand it the Nissan/tohatsu motors are the same motors being branded and sold under the Honda badge
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Old 05-17-2014, 04:04 PM
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yam 70.............end of story............other than that yam. 50........end of story...........
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Old 05-17-2014, 06:41 PM
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the max rated hp for the boat is 50hp so im limited to that

are you saying Yamaha will be faster then other motors or you just like the Yamaha period?
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:22 PM
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a 50 yam gunna be hard to beat . i'm sure a tahat. or suz. 50 may put out the same but i had 50 yam. and now have 70 yam. and thats my story and i'm stik'n to it.....go to wlf and get boat registered commercial and you can put a 200 on it if you want. i had a 14 ft. flat reg. comm. it don't cost no more . i had a comm. shrimp lic. and vessle lic. so i reg. the boat comm. and flotation or hp. is thrown out.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by keakar View Post
I hear a lot of talk about tohatsu motors being very fast but the 4 strokes weight the same as the 2 strokes and are both models equally as fast? also which one is better and why.

also are there other motors that are just as fast or for that matter just better motors overall if not as fast?

I think I need a new motor and wanted to know where to begin searching for a replacement for a 17x52 flatboard motor in the 50hp size (max rated) and I want to get over 30mph top end, hopefully 35-40mph

as I understand it the Nissan/tohatsu motors are the same motors being branded and sold under the Honda badge
When the current stock of Tohatsu TLDI's are gone, that's it. Stock motors will all run very close on equal boats. EVERY manufacturer must follow NMMA guidelines for horsepower ratings. 2 strokes will be a thing of the past except for E-Tec and that is useless.
Now if you want the 50 that is most easily upgraded, the Mercury and the Yamaha have identical specs. The ecu programming is a tad different, everything else is the same. The ecu can be reflashed to 60hp on both outboards. They are both 61 cubic inch 4 cylinder motors. To say one is superior, nahhh, not really. Those 2 would be the most easily upgraded. The problem is the weight, they are above the 250 pound mark for both motors. Both are available only in 20" shaft.

Tohatsu just released their new 3 cylinder, 53 cubic inch, 40/50. It is available in short or long shaft, weighs 208 pounds.

So, if you can live with a long shaft and you can handle the weight, the Merc and Yamaha are a toss up, whichever offers the best price and warranty. Last time I checked, about 2 months ago, the Yamaha was so stupid expensive compared to everything else, they priced themselves out of the market. You can buy the Merc and have enough left over for extended warranty and still have cash left over compared to the price of the Yamaha.

If you have to have a short shaft, the new Tohatsu is hard to beat, comes with a 5 year warranty.

STOCK motors, between the old carbbed tohatsus and the tldi and the 4 stroke, the 4 stroke is the stronger motor. Like the old saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement". The old 2 strokes were 42 cubic inches, the new 4 stroke is 53 cubic inches. And the beautiful thing is that the 40 and 50 are identical, except for 1 minor adjustment. It can be bumped to 50hp in 3 minutes, hello Lacassine.

It will be a stretch for any 50hp motor to push a 1752 boat 40 mph. It should wind up in the 35-36 mph range and remain fishable. Sure, I can put a race prop on it and get you a once in a lifetime mph number that is totally useless and will accomplish nothing. I have rigged boats for 35 years, I have learned that anything longer than 15' starts to cost speed. A 16' will run 4 mph slower than the same boat in a 15', that's any brand boat or motor. The 17 compared to the 16 will cost another 1 mph. It has to do with the balance point (fulcrum) of the boat more than the weight.

For every 5 additional horsepower you add, you will gain 1 mph. So if the 50 pushes your boat 35, reflashing to a 60 should gain 2 mph, at a reflash cost of $700.

I can't intelligently comment on any other 50's. I can only comment on what I have tested. and not speculate.
D

Last edited by CajunChristian; 05-17-2014 at 08:31 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-17-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CajunChristian View Post
When the current stock of Tohatsu TLDI's are gone, that's it. Stock motors will all run very close on equal boats. EVERY manufacturer must follow NMMA guidelines for horsepower ratings. 2 strokes will be a thing of the past except for E-Tec and that is useless.
Now if you want the 50 that is most easily upgraded, the Mercury and the Yamaha have identical specs. The ecu programming is a tad different, everything else is the same. The ecu can be reflashed to 60hp on both outboards. They are both 61 cubic inch 4 cylinder motors. To say one is superior, nahhh, not really. Those 2 would be the most easily upgraded. The problem is the weight, they are above the 250 pound mark for both motors. Both are available only in 20" shaft.
Tohatsu just released their new 3 cylinder, 53 cubic inch, 40/50. It is available in short or long shaft, weighs 208 pounds.
D
Sorry to high jack the post but how do you reflash an ecu. Does it make much difference on a Yamaha.
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Old 05-17-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CajunChristian View Post
When the current stock of Tohatsu TLDI's are gone, that's it. Stock motors will all run very close on equal boats. EVERY manufacturer must follow NMMA guidelines for horsepower ratings. 2 strokes will be a thing of the past except for E-Tec and that is useless.
Now if you want the 50 that is most easily upgraded, the Mercury and the Yamaha have identical specs. The ecu programming is a tad different, everything else is the same. The ecu can be reflashed to 60hp on both outboards. They are both 61 cubic inch 4 cylinder motors. To say one is superior, nahhh, not really. Those 2 would be the most easily upgraded. The problem is the weight, they are above the 250 pound mark for both motors. Both are available only in 20" shaft.

Tohatsu just released their new 3 cylinder, 53 cubic inch, 40/50. It is available in short or long shaft, weighs 208 pounds.

So, if you can live with a long shaft and you can handle the weight, the Merc and Yamaha are a toss up, whichever offers the best price and warranty. Last time I checked, about 2 months ago, the Yamaha was so stupid expensive compared to everything else, they priced themselves out of the market. You can buy the Merc and have enough left over for extended warranty and still have cash left over compared to the price of the Yamaha.

If you have to have a short shaft, the new Tohatsu is hard to beat, comes with a 5 year warranty.

STOCK motors, between the old carbbed tohatsus and the tldi and the 4 stroke, the 4 stroke is the stronger motor. Like the old saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement". The old 2 strokes were 42 cubic inches, the new 4 stroke is 53 cubic inches. And the beautiful thing is that the 40 and 50 are identical, except for 1 minor adjustment. It can be bumped to 50hp in 3 minutes, hello Lacassine.

It will be a stretch for any 50hp motor to push a 1752 boat 40 mph. It should wind up in the 35-36 mph range and remain fishable. Sure, I can put a race prop on it and get you a once in a lifetime mph number that is totally useless and will accomplish nothing. I have rigged boats for 35 years, I have learned that anything longer than 15' starts to cost speed. A 16' will run 4 mph slower than the same boat in a 15', that's any brand boat or motor. The 17 compared to the 16 will cost another 1 mph. It has to do with the balance point (fulcrum) of the boat more than the weight.

For every 5 additional horsepower you add, you will gain 1 mph. So if the 50 pushes your boat 35, reflashing to a 60 should gain 2 mph, at a reflash cost of $700.

I can't intelligently comment on any other 50's. I can only comment on what I have tested. and not speculate.
D
im trying to get away from the weight, my 2002 Suzuki df40 right now weighs 247 lbs. so I definitely want a lighter motor.

I have a 20" transom so I need the 20" shaft version.

I would be happy if I can get 35-36mph from a new motor, my old motor (2002 Suzuki df40) only got me 28 mph on a 15x48 flatboat.

if I get a 50hp tohatsu 4 stroke can I get it flashed to a 60hp when I buy it or will I have to go to a non-dealer mechanic to do it? and what will that actually do? make it run richer and burn more gas but give me more power?

im almost certain I have a blown head gasket on my old motor and maybe warped head but just to replace a head gasket you almost have to tear the whole motor down (twin overhead cams) so I figure I hate to dump $2,000 plus (assuming the head isn't warped) into a 12 year old motor no matter how good I took care of it.

if you don't mind can you PM me a basic ball park price for an electric start remote 50hp PTT with ss prop and controls installed compared to a 40hp? so I know if im getting a good price when I shop around locally.

also could my 13 spline Suzuki ss prop be reused for a tohatsu?

Last edited by keakar; 05-17-2014 at 09:03 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2014, 05:36 AM
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40hp is also goin to cost less then a 50 hp on the Tohatsu and Nissan and if it's the TLDI I know you can make the 40hp into a 50hp..... same motor for less money. I would suggest talking to CajunChristian before you do anything and call Lake Area Marine for prices.
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by keakar View Post
im trying to get away from the weight, my 2002 Suzuki df40 right now weighs 247 lbs. so I definitely want a lighter motor.

I have a 20" transom so I need the 20" shaft version.

I would be happy if I can get 35-36mph from a new motor, my old motor (2002 Suzuki df40) only got me 28 mph on a 15x48 flatboat.

if I get a 50hp tohatsu 4 stroke can I get it flashed to a 60hp when I buy it or will I have to go to a non-dealer mechanic to do it? and what will that actually do? make it run richer and burn more gas but give me more power?

im almost certain I have a blown head gasket on my old motor and maybe warped head but just to replace a head gasket you almost have to tear the whole motor down (twin overhead cams) so I figure I hate to dump $2,000 plus (assuming the head isn't warped) into a 12 year old motor no matter how good I took care of it.

if you don't mind can you PM me a basic ball park price for an electric start remote 50hp PTT with ss prop and controls installed compared to a 40hp? so I know if im getting a good price when I shop around locally.

also could my 13 spline Suzuki ss prop be reused for a tohatsu?
The tohatsu is a 40/50, that's it. There is no reflash. The 40 can be bumped to 50 in 3 minutes, no reflash, dealer makes a small adjustment, then it's a 50.. The only 50's on the market that can be reflashed are the Yamaha and the Mercury long shaft, 250 pound motors.
I can't give you a price, I don't sell them, Lake Area Marine does. Call Kyle Monday morning and he can do that. Tell him you saw it on Salty Cajun, helps them allocate their advertising dollars wisely.
D
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:11 AM
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Sorry to high jack the post but how do you reflash an ecu. Does it make much difference on a Yamaha.
Depends on which Yamaha you have. On the 4 cylinder 50, it reflashes to a 60, that makes 10hp difference or about 2 mph on a loaded duck boat. The ecu must be removed and shipped to California, he reflashes and sends it back.
D
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by weedeater View Post
40hp is also goin to cost less then a 50 hp on the Tohatsu and Nissan and if it's the TLDI I know you can make the 40hp into a 50hp..... same motor for less money. I would suggest talking to CajunChristian before you do anything and call Lake Area Marine for prices.
The TLDI's are history. Whatever is left in stock is the end. This new 4 stroke is their replacement, and quite an improvement over the tldi. The tldi is 42 ci, the 4 stroke is 53ci, quite a difference. The 4 stroke burns much cleaner, hence greener. The 4 stroke is so much quieter, hole shot is unbelievable. Motor runs quiet at all speeds.
Here are a few videos of our testing.
The hole shot, plane time was 2.5 seconds:
Top end run:
D
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by weedeater View Post
40hp is also goin to cost less then a 50 hp on the Tohatsu and Nissan and if it's the TLDI I know you can make the 40hp into a 50hp..... same motor for less money. I would suggest talking to CajunChristian before you do anything and call Lake Area Marine for prices.
The tldi is history. This 4 stroke replaces the tldi. It's quieter, burns less fuel, burns no oil, is quieter, greener, is 53 ci compared to 42 ci.

Keakar, sorry, I just read the last line of your post. Whether or not you can use your old prop from your Suzuki depends on the gear ratios. Tohatsu accomplishes their hole shot with a 2.08:1 gear ratio. That means that motors like the Yamaha and merc with a 1.85:1 ratio may turn a 14 pitch, the tohatsu will turn a 15 pitch because of the lower gear ratio. They are all 13 spline, but we have found we are putting more 15 pitch props on these new tohatsu's where the older motors were running 13's and 14's.
I just finished rigging a War Eagle, War Eagle is Arkansas talk for "heavy barge",1648, 100 gauge boat with floors and walls, 3 batteries, about 400 pounds of junk. The boat is running just under 40mph with me in it, another 200 pound person drops 2 mph. On this barge, I ended up with a 13 pitch PowerTech with tons of cup in the prop. He hunts Arkansas timber and wanted to run super shallow. We are spinning the 13 pitch cupped powertech 6200 with just me in the boat, on the rev limiter, add another 200 pounder, it dropped to 6100 rpm. This guy usually runs 4 men, gear, and dog, so he is propped for a load.
D

Last edited by CajunChristian; 05-18-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2014, 08:25 AM
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Not to high jack but, can the new 4 stroke 40hp Tohatsu be made into a 50 Tohatsu?
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:27 AM
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The tldi is history. This 4 stroke replaces the tldi. It's quieter, burns less fuel, burns no oil, is quieter, greener, is 53 ci compared to 42 ci.

Keakar, sorry, I just read the last line of your post. Whether or not you can use your old prop from your Suzuki depends on the gear ratios. Tohatsu accomplishes their hole shot with a 2.08:1 gear ratio. That means that motors like the Yamaha and merc with a 1.85:1 ratio may turn a 14 pitch, the tohatsu will turn a 15 pitch because of the lower gear ratio. They are all 13 spline, but we have found we are putting more 15 pitch props on these new tohatsu's where the older motors were running 13's and 14's. I don't know what cubic inch or gear ratio your Suzuki is, so I can't guess if the props will work correctly. The props will fit, they all have 13 spline prop shafts.

As for the tohatsu's being rebadged as Hondas, that's possible. Tohatsu's are rebadged as Nissans, Nissan has no outboard factory, they are 100% tohatsu. All Mercury 30hp and under have been 100% tohatsu for years, ever since they quit making the 25hp 2 stroke.

I just finished rigging a War Eagle, War Eagle is Arkansas talk for "heavy barge",1648, 100 gauge boat with floors and walls, 3 batteries, about 400 pounds of junk. The boat is running just under 40mph with me in it, another 200 pound person drops 2 mph. On this barge, I ended up with a 13 pitch PowerTech with tons of cup in the prop. He hunts Arkansas timber and wanted to run super shallow. We are spinning the 13 pitch cupped powertech 6200 with just me in the boat, on the rev limiter, add another 200 pounder, it dropped to 6100 rpm. This guy usually runs 4 men, gear, and dog, so he is propped for a load. Most of the AlWelds with this engine are running 14 or 15 pitch props and doing well.

I have tested motors, boats, and props for about 30 years now. I test for different folks. I tested and helped design the original Edge high performance boat, the Ambush aluminum high performance hull, I have done consultant work with Mercury, on their motors and props, 60hp and under. I spent 2 months in Fon du Lac and Oshkosh, Wisconsin testing race propellers for Mercury. I raced for Tohatsu for 9 years, I was the ONLY AMERICAN ever sponsored by the Japanese. We had a great relationship, thanks to Gerald Link. I don't say all that to brag, I say that to qualify my statements about different engine and boat combos. This ain't my first rodeo.
I was asked to test this AlWeld boat and the new Tohatsu. I was currently running the fastest marsh rig I have ever owned, a 1556 Edge HIGH PERFORMANCE boat with a 40 turned 64hp Merc 4 stroke. It was a rocket, 45+ mph loaded for Lacassine, 2 men, 24 volt 82# thrust trolling motor and all gear. Empty, the boat ran 52 with a fishing prop and 62 with a race prop.
This is the maiden voyage of that Edge boat with a FISHING prop:

And here's when things go wrong, when I earn my pay:
It stopped with the race prop at 62 because I had enough, I ran out of cojones. The boat stated kiting and I didn't want to go swimming. I really enjoyed that rig, until I tested the Tohatsu and AlWeld. The Edge was like a Vette with a supercharger on it. You had to pay 110% attention to the driving or you and your partner were going swimming. I got tired of that, it's time for me to enjoy RELAXED fishing. The AlWeld compared to the Edge is like driving a Silverado compared to a Vette.
My 4 stroke Tohatsu is at Lake Area awaiting a 1552 AlWeld Marsh Special boat. That's how much I liked the rig. I have twice bought rigs that I tested, I was given that Mercury 4 cylinder after testing it, and bought that Edge boat. Now, after thorough testing, I am BUYING the Tohatsu and the AlWeld. Very few rigs impress me, I have tested so many. This one did it for me.
I don't care what brand motor you buy, I make no commission, I make nothing. I don't work for Lake Area or anyone else. When I test a rig, they get the bad with the good. They don't hire "YES" men if they want to improve their product. I work as an INDEPENDANT CONSULTANT. If you don't believe that, call Ambush. They left here with their hearts broken. I suggested changes to their hull design to enable them to market it as a "high performance" hull, which it wasn't when it got here. They have since made some of the changes and changed the speed and the handling of the boat completely. In my opinion, if you buy a "high performance" aluminum hull, it should run minimum 5-7 mph faster than any other hull with the same motor. Why pay a premium price for "high performance" if you don't get it?
D

Last edited by CajunChristian; 05-18-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-18-2014, 11:07 AM
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thanks CajunChristian, I thought you were also "connected" to a dealer somehow as a consultant or such and didn't realize you were 100% independent.

I felt you would give independent opinions without being partial in any case so that's why I value your opinion.

I still have an unanswered question that others have asked about as well, if you buy the new 4 stroke 40hp tohatsu do they sell a 40hp AND a 50hp or do you buy a single motor listed as a 40/50hp and they set it for 40 or 50hp when you buy it?

or can you buy the 40hp or the 50hp version motors depending on your needs, but if you are smart you can just buy the 40hp and have them reset it to the 50hp power output while the motor as sold is still a 40hp

I have the powertech SRD3 in 13 pitch so I don't think it would be a good fit from what you were saying about it
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:30 AM
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Keaker, you can buy the 40, you can buy the 50. The manufacturer makes both a 40 and a 50. The dealer can make the 40 into a 50.
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:40 AM
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Keaker, you can buy the 40, you can buy the 50. The manufacturer makes both a 40 and a 50. The dealer can make the 40 into a 50.
ok so it doesn't make any sense at all to buy the 50 if the 40 can be turned into a 50 for less then the differences in the selling prices then

thanks, that's what I wanted to be clear about
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Old 05-18-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by keakar View Post
thanks CajunChristian, I thought you were also "connected" to a dealer somehow as a consultant or such and didn't realize you were 100% independent.

I felt you would give independent opinions without being partial in any case so that's why I value your opinion.

I still have an unanswered question that others have asked about as well, if you buy the new 4 stroke 40hp tohatsu do they sell a 40hp AND a 50hp or do you buy a single motor listed as a 40/50hp and they set it for 40 or 50hp when you buy it?

or can you buy the 40hp or the 50hp version motors depending on your needs, but if you are smart you can just buy the 40hp and have them reset it to the 50hp power output while the motor as sold is still a 40hp

I have the powertech SRD3 in 13 pitch so I don't think it would be a good fit from what you were saying about it
Like Paul said, buy the 40 and let the Dealer do the rest. With a 40, you can fish Lacassine or Sabine if you want to.
The motor comes with an aluminum prop to use as a spare. You can sell your PowerTech. The best all around prop we have found for this motor is the Black Painted Yamaha Stainless Steel propeller. That prop has been the best prop on everything we test it on. You will have to try the 14 and 15 pitch and pick whichever fits your needs better.
I am independent. Even though I like Gerald and Kyle, if they asked me to test a product, the truth would be given to them, as it would for anyone else. When asked to test this new engine and the AlWeld, I asked them if I could make the test results public, they agreed. Otherwise, they would have been given the results to do with as they pleased and I would never have put the results on here. Now when asked by individuals, I will make a recommendation from my experience.
We live in the best of times, we were Blessed to have had access to some great 2 stroke motors, now we get to see the evolution of the 4 strokes as 2 strokes are phased out.
These new 4 strokes are not even comparable to 4 strokes from 5-10 years ago. 4 stroke outboard technology has improved so much it ridiculous. A big problem is that most folks are basing their opinions of 4 strokes from the past. 4 stroke motors have evolved, just look at your vehicles of today. I drive a Nissan Murano. It has a small 3.5 liter V6. That little motor makes 260 horsepower, in the 350Z it makes 306 horsepower. The old Ford 302 (5.0L) cubic inch motor made 190-200 horsepower in a truck. The Ford 5.0 liter motor in a 2014 Mustang now makes 420 horsepower, same cubic inch, double the power. Engine technology has changed so fast, same with outboards. The first 4 stroke motor I ever saw was back in the 60's. My grandfather bought A 55 horsepower Homelite 4 stroke. It was a monstrous 4 cylinder motor. Must have weighed 400+ pounds, but it was quiet and very fuel efficient. I have no idea how many cubic inches that thing sported, but it was massive. Compare that to today's 4 stroke 50hp motors at 200 pounds.
Seems that 4 stroke outboards are becoming like the computer world, doubles the technology every 6 months.
D
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Old 05-18-2014, 03:02 PM
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@ CajunChristian

the Yamaha ss prop you speak of is the OEM Yamaha brand prop I need to buy from any Yamaha dealer or can I get one anywhere? and is it just one style prop or do I have to choose from semi-cleaver, clever, cupped, or not cupped and all that which you have to do for aftermarket props? in other words can I just say give me an OEM Yamaha prop and get the right one or will I have choices to make other then the pitch?

one last point, based on your experience for a regular use (not racing) prop when would a 4 blade be a good choice? I never could understand how to decide when you need a 4 blade or not and the times I see people recommend one they never have a good explanation as to why except to say it works better and im a very curious guy that likes to know why I make the decisions im told to make
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Old 05-18-2014, 03:12 PM
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If you get the motor from Lake Area Marine, they have the Yamaha prop you need for that motor. 14, 15 and 16 pitch.
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