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  #1  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:45 AM
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Default Diverting versus Dredging?

How many of you are informed of this issue? The Coastal Protection and Restoration Authority wants to put a 250k freshwater diversion in at Braithwaite in an attempt to build and restore land in that area (Venice to Hopedale).

If you aren't completely up to speed on the issue, then read this article I wrote to give you a start. Article on dredging vs diverting.

Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2013, 12:01 PM
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Good article
Thanks for the info and great pics
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  #3  
Old 08-25-2013, 09:27 PM
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Great article. Seems pretty simple to me. If you dredge today, you will have new land tomorrow.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:52 AM
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Default Can of worms

Devin, I will agree that dredging does build land right now, but the first storm that comes thru will knock that land out. You can post maps all day everyday of what southeast La looked like before and after diversions, and I can post maps of what SW La looks like where there has not been a freshwater diversion and you will see similar land loss taking place over there as well as ALL of SE Louisiana. There was a thread about this with some maps showing land loss in SW LA nowhere NEAR a freshwater diversion. All this land loss is due to saltwater intrusion and subsidence, and not one person will disagree with that.

In SE LA, the land is subsiding and we are losing a football field a DAY over there, nowhere near Caernarvon or Davis Pond. Leeville to Grand Isle looks different every time I go there and its from saltwater intrusion and subsidence, and I think we can agree on that. You can also see the effects of saltwater intrusion on Lake Pantchartain and Maurepas. All those cypress are dying a slow death due to saltwater, you can see it from the interstate, some are already dead and not one person will tell you that its something other than saltwater. I can show you on Maurepas WMA where cypress trees were planted 15 years ago and some are not even 6 feet tall because of lack of nutrients and saltwater intrusion. Its been well documented, there are CRMS stations right there.

There are dredging projects going on RIGHT now all over the state and yes they help out and you can actually see it with your own eyes that land is buidling. I was on Pelican Island just last week and there was dredging taking place. That place is a poster child for needing hyrdologic remediation ( i.e. freshwater) The whole place (Empire to Buras) is open water which used to be land. MY GPS even showed me that where we were boating was ONCE land and not that long ago. I would bet that any charter captain in that area would tell you that there land is washing away right in front of their eyes.

BUT, you are putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound essentially. Without stopping the 'wound' you aren't doing anything. I know that the majority of people against diversions are against it only what has been done south of Caernarvon diversion and want to blame that diversion on their land loss but that land loss is comparable to land loss all over the coastal zone of our state. In other words EVERYONE is experiencing land loss, not just you guys below Caernarvon

I listened to 5 talks on this a few weeks ago from professionals (geologists, oceanographers, and plant ecologists) and the first two were providing evidence that maybe we shouldn't jump on diversions just yet, the next ones were presenting data that diversions are needed right now ASAP, and the final presentation was a plant ecologist who showed data (that was previously published by the first two presenters and that they conveniently left out of their presentation).

The take home message here is that

1. Saltwater is BAD for everything except trout fishing
2. Trout should not be caught in Maurepas Lake but that is going to be the case here real soon and
3.Land is being lost all over the state not just below Caernarvon
4. There are WAY more dredging projects than diversion projects planned and WAY more money dedicated to dredging than diverting.
5. Dredgind does NOT address the two main issues here causing the loss of land which are subsidence and saltwater intrusion
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gasper Master View Post
Great article. Seems pretty simple to me. If you dredge today, you will have new land tomorrow.
and that land will be wiped out first storm that comes thru
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  #6  
Old 08-27-2013, 12:26 PM
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I'll throw my two cents in real quick. I've seen a few dredge and fill jobs where they were supposed to create a Marsh, and they made a plateau that trees grew on. Dredging works, but you have to do it right. And you have to put plants on it. If you don't, it will disappear as quick as you put it there.

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Old 08-27-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duck Butter View Post
and that land will be wiped out first storm that comes thru
Did you read the article? There is land made from a dredge that withstood a storm in the article, is this photoshopped?


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  #8  
Old 08-27-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Goooh View Post
Did you read the article? There is land made from a dredge that withstood a storm in the article, is this photoshopped?


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I will say I didn't read the article, but I think I get what DB is saying. First, that land, if nothing establishes, will wash away. Second, there is nothing stopping dredged land from washing away. It is not a super marsh that will sustain everything. It can wash away just as quick as anything else. What DB is getting at, I think, is that dredging cannot be the only option.

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  #9  
Old 08-27-2013, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Smalls View Post
I will say I didn't read the article, but I think I get what DB is saying. First, that land, if nothing establishes, will wash away. Second, there is nothing stopping dredged land from washing away. It is not a super marsh that will sustain everything. It can wash away just as quick as anything else. What DB is getting at, I think, is that dredging cannot be the only option.

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The dredged land created would be just like the sediment that was placed there naturally, and like the sediment that creates land at the moths of rivers - it will more than likely have established plant life rather quickly, just like the incidental land created within the article.

I would at least read the article before standing so firm.


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  #10  
Old 08-27-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Goooh View Post
The dredged land created would be just like the sediment that was placed there naturally, and like the sediment that creates land at the moths of rivers - it will more than likely have established plant life rather quickly, just like the incidental land created within the article.

I would at least read the article before standing so firm.


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I read it and like I said I dredging is a good thing, we need it and there are dredging projects going on right now all across the state, but what people with an agenda often do is skip over articles that may not fall in line with their position (just like the media), they skip over articles until they find one that suits them

From the article:
"In 2004, the Army Corps of Engineers was dredging out the MRGO (Mississippi River Gulf Outlet) to keep it navigable to ocean-going ships. They pumped this material out of the MRGO and onto the opposite side of the rock jetty, where it piled up above the waterline and accidentally formed land. The mud sat there as it was naturally populated by oyster grass, making it hardy against storm surge. This occurred on the south side of the MRGO, opposite of Gardner Island."

Then he shows two maps with the following headings
Island being built by a dredge in 2004.

Here the island is complete and has successfully survived Hurricane Katrina despite being devoid of oyster grass. Note the date stamp.



So which is it? Is there oystergrass or not? In the paragraph above its yes, then in the photo right here it says 'devoid of oystergrass'


The entire agenda here is to keep the water salty down there in order to keep the great speckled trout fishery they have down there. The diversions have been running for years and anyone that has seen any reports coming from that area knows that the trout fishing has been great this year despite the doom and gloom from the diversions

There is another website that you can find all this out for yourself and if you try to disagree or state your opinion you will be banned from the website and maybe even get a nasty message, your posts will be deleted if you say anything about the diversions
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  #11  
Old 08-27-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goooh View Post
The dredged land created would be just like the sediment that was placed there naturally, and like the sediment that creates land at the moths of rivers - it will more than likely have established plant life rather quickly, just like the incidental land created within the article.

I would at least read the article before standing so firm.


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What's your point? I guess I missed where I said I was completely against dredging.

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  #12  
Old 08-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goooh View Post
The dredged land created would be just like the sediment that was placed there naturally, and like the sediment that creates land at the moths of rivers - it will more than likely have established plant life rather quickly, just like the incidental land created within the article.

I would at least read the article before standing so firm.


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The article states two differing things on plant life - it says oystergrass was there in one sentence and then it says it was devoid of it.

Dredging is good for the record.

It needs to be coupled with other things though. If you ever get over to SE La and look around all that land is going quick
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  #13  
Old 08-28-2013, 09:25 AM
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Here is a poster child example of land loss in SE LA and this place has been filled with dredge material 4 different times and storms wiped it out (and this place is nowhere near a freshwater diversion) Millions of dollars spent on this project over the last 20 years and we have nothing to show for it. Its almost as if people around Hopedale/Shell Beach live under a rock and never go anywhere else in the state because things like this are found in every coastal parish

http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20...CLES/130819862

Wine Island may be wiped off map

Wine Island is shown after Hurricane Isaac.


By Nikki Buskey
Staff Writer

Published: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 at 11:00 a.m.

Last Modified: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 at 11:05 a.m.


Page 1 of 3
Terrebonne's Wine Island may soon be wiped off the map.

Hurricane Isaac in 2012 took what little remained of the barrier island and swept the sandy shoal that remained outside the ring of rocks built to protect it.
Tim Osborn, regional manager of NOAA's Office of Coast Survey, said the agency is moving swiftly to update its nautical charts because what remains is a serious hazard to boaters.
Rocks were put around the island decades ago to stem erosion, but Hurricane Isaac proved to be the island's downfall. The shoal that remains has migrated outside the rock barrier.
“No one has any buoys or lights marking the area, so if you're moving into the area to do some fishing, that ring of rocks just at the waterline poses a major hazard,” Osborn said.
With no immediate plans by the parish or the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to restore the island, Wine Island's name could also be stripped from nautical charts.
“It has ceased to be an island,” Osborn said.
Wine Island's degradation reflects a larger change across the coastal Louisiana landscape, Osborn said, and the loss of important coastal habitats that may not be reclaimed.
Earlier this year, the office remapped Plaquemines Parish's coastline, removing 31 place names, after finding that many of the lakes, bays, bayous and passes that once existed no longer have the defining features required to be included on the map.
The barrier island didn't just provide hurricane protection. Wine Island was an important nesting habitat for thousands of birds
“Wine Island is the poster child for the multiple uses of our barrier islands,” Terrebonne Coastal Restoration Director Nic Matherne said. “The island provides us with storm protection, but before people were here we had wildlife, and the birds that use these islands regularly.”
During the 2008 season, 11,000 pairs of birds nested on the island.
Nesting birds prefer islands that are small and remote because they can't support larger predators that could disturb the eggs or eat the young, said Kerry St. Pé, director of the Barataria-Terrebonne National Estuary Program.
Nearby Raccoon Island still hosts the largest colony of brown pelicans in Louisiana.
St. Pé said that scientists from the estuary program recently travelled to Wine Island to evaluate it for possible future plantings or restoration projects.
“We were asked to go look at it, and there was just nothing left,” he said. “We elected not to reestablish any vegetation because the island was too far gone.”
For many years, Terrebonne was committed to restoring the island, St. Pé said.
“Wine Island has a long history of being protected and restored by Terrebonne Parish,” St. Pé said. “In the early years Terrebonne really took an interest in Wine Island, and the island was ringed with rocks.”
Dirt dredged from the Houma Navigation Canal has been used at least four times to bolster the island since 1991. But recent storms took their toll.
Hurricanes Gustav and Ike in 2008 reduced the island to almost nothing, and its plant life was wiped out. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers then opted not to include Wine Island in its plan to restore Terrebonne's barrier islands. Scientists deemed the island unsustainable. Hurricane Isaac then washed away the remains.
It's not just Wine Island. All of Terrebonne's barrier islands are undergoing severe erosion, including the Isles Dernieres and Timbalier islands, Matherne said.
Terrebonne is building a levee system to provide it with storm protection, but the ecosystem outside that levee protection provides vital support to wildlife as well as protection, he added.
Matherne said that help is coming for Terrebonne's barrier islands. Earlier this year, a plan was announced to spend $340 million in early restoration dollars from BP oil spill fines on barrier islands in Louisiana, including a $110 million project to restore beaches, dunes and back-barrier marshes on Whiskey Island. The rest of the parish's islands are also in the state's plans for post-spill restoration, Matherne said.
But St. Pé said that you can't just restore the islands. You have to also restore land inside the system. Less land inside the system means the islands are subject to a greater volume of water that must drain past each day, which translates into increased erosive forces.
In addition, barrier island work is more expensive because you have to haul equipment and dredging material from far away. But St. Pé said rebuilding smaller islands preferred by birds as nesting habitat is just important.
He suggested piggybacking dredging projects to build smaller islands on top of larger projects.
The Barataria-Terrebonne National Estuary Program is aiming to rebuild some of these smaller islands in Plaquemines Parish.
Staff Writer Nikki Buskey can be reached at 448-7636 or
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  #14  
Old 08-28-2013, 09:36 AM
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check out post #27 on this thread. Seems like good info, but I know nothing about coastal restoration. I just know we need to do something.
http://www.thehulltruth.com/gulf-coa...uisiana-2.html
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:09 AM
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check out post #27 on this thread. Seems like good info, but I know nothing about coastal restoration. I just know we need to do something.
http://www.thehulltruth.com/gulf-coa...uisiana-2.html
that was excellent thanks

There have been several scientists try and talk to the anti-diversion crowd but they get banned from the website, or just don't get invited to the meetings. The diversions planned are sediment diversions and wastewater diversions and are not even similar to the Caernarvon diversion which is a freshwater diversion. They try to give the whole 'doom and gloom' with catch words like 250,000 cfs, but that is not the case. They will only be opened during flood pulses (and not 250,000 cfs all year round). There are way too many mistruths that are being spread. I got banned over on the site twice because someone was showing asian carp and 'water hyacinth' (it was salvinia and I pointed that out and they got mad) and saying diversions are bringing in Asian carp and invasive plants That is the case over all of S Louisiana and not from diversions. They also put up maps they said were official maps from the La DNR. Well, the map was titled 'Marsh Dyeing" No official map is going to have the title spelled wrong. I got banned for pointing that out too (the map was removed though). I guess the state was putting dye in the marsh Anyone can make maps on the SONRIS website and they all have the La DNR logo.

There are way more mistruths to point out as well.

Believe it or not, there are people who show that dredging is bad for bird habitat, but they realize without it, there will be no land so the benefits outweigh the bad. For instance, when placing dredge on top of land that has been there, the dredged material kills all the invertebrates that were there (bird food). The dredge material is typically jsut muck and many birds will not nest on that substrate, they require sand. BUT, again they realize its better than not having land period, the birds can still loaf in these areas and the inverts will eventually come back

We just need to dredge, divert, and do whatever
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Duck Butter View Post
that was excellent thanks

There have been several scientists try and talk to the anti-diversion crowd but they get banned from the website, or just don't get invited to the meetings. The diversions planned are sediment diversions and wastewater diversions and are not even similar to the Caernarvon diversion which is a freshwater diversion. They try to give the whole 'doom and gloom' with catch words like 250,000 cfs, but that is not the case. They will only be opened during flood pulses (and not 250,000 cfs all year round). There are way too many mistruths that are being spread. I got banned over on the site twice because someone was showing asian carp and 'water hyacinth' (it was salvinia and I pointed that out and they got mad) and saying diversions are bringing in Asian carp and invasive plants That is the case over all of S Louisiana and not from diversions. They also put up maps they said were official maps from the La DNR. Well, the map was titled 'Marsh Dyeing" No official map is going to have the title spelled wrong. I got banned for pointing that out too (the map was removed though). I guess the state was putting dye in the marsh Anyone can make maps on the SONRIS website and they all have the La DNR logo.

There are way more mistruths to point out as well.

Believe it or not, there are people who show that dredging is bad for bird habitat, but they realize without it, there will be no land so the benefits outweigh the bad. For instance, when placing dredge on top of land that has been there, the dredged material kills all the invertebrates that were there (bird food). The dredge material is typically jsut muck and many birds will not nest on that substrate, they require sand. BUT, again they realize its better than not having land period, the birds can still loaf in these areas and the inverts will eventually come back

We just need to dredge, divert, and do whatever
yeah I quit going to "that site" a long time ago. Too hard to read and all arguments are one sided. I posted a guided trip I went on one time over there and it got deleted because the Capt wasnt a site sponsor
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