Getting neighbors onboard with big buck mgmt

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I never claimed "proof". "Proof" is a term I almost never use, except when quoting others who have claimed it or speaking of geometry proofs. I've never used the word "proof" in my published papers when discussing data.

Data can support, indicate, show, demonstrate aspects relative to assertions, hypotheses or theories, but not theory in science is every "proven."

I've linked much of the red snapper data before in threads discussing snapper more directly, and I'm not inclined to chase all the links down again in a deer thread. Use the search function.

This is a deer thread? Then why did you go into dead zones, snapper, tripletail, and the big lake trout

I was just quoting your earlier point on 'proof'

"2. Scientific proof means sound reasoning based on published data. Global warming, red snapper management, and the Gulf of Mexico's purported "dead zone" are three cases where those arguing for restrictive public policies have changed "scientific proof" to mean "viewpoints of scientists" rather than clear interpretations of published data."

Published data is far far far from proof especially when dealing with ecology or population biology, it is most the time the 'viewpoint of a scientist' or in reality just the best guess with the information at hand.

There was a conference last year at LSU and a professor who studies wild turkeys had placed GPS transmitters on wild turkeys and was showing his data. Someone asked what did the new data show? and his answer was 'it showed that all those papers I have published in the past about turkey movements and home ranges were junk' Just shows that published data isn't always right, it may have been 'right' at that particular time but it has to hold true for many many years before its taken as fact

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

This is a deer thread? Then why did you go into dead zones, snapper, tripletail, and the big lake trout

I was making some points about big gov't and small gov't by bringing in examples from different areas that had already been discussed in some detail in Salty Cajun and were thus familiar with many readers.

I was also illuminating some basic principles of wildlife management by referring to familiar examples. Comparison with familiar examples is a fairly common discussion approach.

Big gov't solutions usually involve increased regulations, increased costs, increased paperwork, and greater complexity.

Small gov't solutions usually involve reduced overall regulation, reduced costs, reduced complexity, and greater individual liberty while more likely to achieve the management goals.

I love Louisiana. But the amount of regulations one needs to deal with even with simple things like hunting and fishing are amazing, not to even mention the paperwork and regulations to start a business.

Suppose someone wants to buy a boat, launch at Calcasieu Point and fish in Turner's Bay. Let's count up the tasks involved to do it legally:

Acquire LA fishing license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Acquire LA saltwater license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Buying resident licenses requires one's vehicle registrations, one's driver's license, and one's voter registration to all be first transferred to Louisiana.

Register boat with LDWF. Apply numbers to boat according to regs. Paperwork and $$$.

Register trailer with LA BMV. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Get inspection sticker for trailer. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Boaters born after 1984 also need a boater education card which they must carry with them.

In addition, to the required fishing licenses, a state issued photo ID must also be carried.

The state fishing regulation book is 55 pages long, though with care, I think one can be in good shape with the general fishing regulations (5 pages) and the saltwater specific regulations (6 pages).

Fishing in a WMA has a bunch more rules.

Fishing offshore requires an additional permit.

Even more steps of licensing, registration, and regulation are required of a first time duck hunter.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I was making some points about big gov't and small gov't by bringing in examples from different areas that had already been discussed in some detail in Salty Cajun and were thus familiar with many readers.

I was also illuminating some basic principles of wildlife management by referring to familiar examples. Comparison with familiar examples is a fairly common discussion approach.

Big gov't solutions usually involve increased regulations, increased costs, increased paperwork, and greater complexity.

Small gov't solutions usually involve reduced overall regulation, reduced costs, reduced complexity, and greater individual liberty while more likely to achieve the management goals.

I love Louisiana. But the amount of regulations one needs to deal with even with simple things like hunting and fishing are amazing, not to even mention the paperwork and regulations to start a business.

Suppose someone wants to buy a boat, launch at Calcasieu Point and fish in Turner's Bay. Let's count up the tasks involved to do it legally:

Acquire LA fishing license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Acquire LA saltwater license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Buying resident licenses requires one's vehicle registrations, one's driver's license, and one's voter registration to all be first transferred to Louisiana.

Register boat with LDWF. Apply numbers to boat according to regs. Paperwork and $$$.

Register trailer with LA BMV. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Get inspection sticker for trailer. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Boaters born after 1984 also need a boater education card which they must carry with them.

In addition, to the required fishing licenses, a state issued photo ID must also be carried.

The state fishing regulation book is 55 pages long, though with care, I think one can be in good shape with the general fishing regulations (5 pages) and the saltwater specific regulations (6 pages).

Fishing in a WMA has a bunch more rules.

Fishing offshore requires an additional permit.

Even more steps of licensing, registration, and regulation are required of a first time duck hunter.

wow, nice rant! I feel like there is a need for most of these, surely don't think any joe blow off the street should go into a WMA without a permit (the permit shows the person has read and agrees to all the rules, sometimes they are different for each WMA)

our fishing regulations book is long because we can catch anything from bluegill to blue marlin here and there are regs for each of them



nevermind, I am not going any further,

just say 'draconian sanctions'


say it!!!!!!!!!

[Duck Butter]

Here is a 100% public meeting and its TOMORROW in Baton Rouge, there is a public comment section at the end, go and speak up about all the regs that are hindering your freedom

http://wlf.louisiana.gov/news/37550

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Here is a 100% public meeting and its TOMORROW in Baton Rouge, there is a public comment section at the end, go and speak up about all the regs that are hindering your freedom

http://wlf.louisiana.gov/news/37550

Suppose I go and complain about the trailer inspection, which is a LA requirement that most other states do not see the need for. They'll tell me I'm in the wrong place and that I've wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about the silly rule about not even possessing lead shot while duck hunting. Again, I'm in the wrong place and wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about getting cited for possessing a redfish 5 miles out. They probably won't even be able to determine if I'm in the right place or not.

One of the pernicious features of big gov't is there are so many different bureaucracies whose regulations, permitting, $$$, and paperwork requirements need to be simultaneously satisfied when doing a single thing.

I've had an opportunity to move to 7 different states in my adult life. Complying with each state's income tax requirements (state tax return, estimated taxes, etc.) has actually been much simpler (less paperwork, fewer departments, fewer checks, fewer personal appearances, much less total time etc.) in each case than complying with each state's hunting or fishing requirements.

Are you telling me that it is right and reasonable that hunting or fishing should have more burdensome requirements than paying income taxes?

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Suppose I go and complain about the trailer inspection, which is a LA requirement that most other states do not see the need for. They'll tell me I'm in the wrong place and that I've wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about the silly rule about not even possessing lead shot while duck hunting. Again, I'm in the wrong place and wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about getting cited for possessing a redfish 5 miles out. They probably won't even be able to determine if I'm in the right place or not.

One of the pernicious features of big gov't is there are so many different bureaucracies whose regulations, permitting, $$$, and paperwork requirements need to be simultaneously satisfied when doing a single thing.

I've had an opportunity to move to 7 different states in my adult life. Complying with each state's income tax requirements (state tax return, estimated taxes, etc.) has actually been much simpler (less paperwork, fewer departments, fewer checks, fewer personal appearances, much less total time etc.) in each case than complying with each state's hunting or fishing requirements.

Are you telling me that it is right and reasonable that hunting or fishing should have more burdensome requirements than paying income taxes?

So....does this mean you are not going to the meeting?

Just keep on ranting on message boards if you are wanting things to change, don't go to the meetings and express your concerns, its much better to just rant on a message board

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

So....does this mean you are not going to the meeting?

Writing letters is more my style, and more effective than personal appearances in most cases.

We shut down the tripletail limit with a letter writing effort. The next step of progress in red snapper is having congress recognize LAs new boundary.

More real progress is likely exerting pressure on the relevant legislators than the wildlife commission. Once a good written case is framed, it can be applied to both legislators and commission members with much less manpower than showing up at meetings.

Big gov't types probably prefer citizens waste their efforts showing up at meetings because it is much less effective at bounding expansions of gov't power.

Oh yeah, the meeting is not tomorrow, it's Thursday. Big gov't types especially like when concerned citizens show up on the wrong day.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Writing letters is more my style, and more effective than personal appearances in most cases.

We shut down the tripletail limit with a letter writing effort. The next step of progress in red snapper is having congress recognize LAs new boundary.

More real progress is likely exerting pressure on the relevant legislators than the wildlife commission. Once a good written case is framed, it can be applied to both legislators and commission members with much less manpower than showing up at meetings.

Big gov't types probably prefer citizens waste their efforts showing up at meetings because it is much less effective at bounding expansions of gov't power.

Oh yeah, the meeting is not tomorrow, it's Thursday. Big gov't types especially like when concerned citizens show up on the wrong day.

Negative, there never was a tripletail limit, can't shut down something that never happened.


Those tripletail threads were one of those 'sky is falling' things that everyone gets up in arms about but they never happen. If you look through the tripletail threads you will see a common theme of people sounding alarms and speculating what 'they heard' Almost like one of those chain emails you get and people keep on forwarding them on even though they aren't true.


[/QUOTE]
Big gov't types probably prefer citizens waste their efforts showing up at meetings because it is much less effective at bounding expansions of gov't power.[/QUOTE]

actually, the 'big gov't types' have been asking for public discussion and have meetings all the time all over the state to discuss things, yet people do NOT show up. People will gripe about it on message boards and when its time to put up or shut up, they don't show. After awhile, they realize the meetings are a waste of time and money if no one is going to show.

Public red snapper meetings have been held all over and when they are mentioned on this site, no one responds. Do a search on red snapper on this site, see how many views to those threads there are, and how many people actually responded (its low, real low)

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Negative, there never was a tripletail limit, can't shut down something that never happened.


Those tripletail threads were one of those 'sky is falling' things that everyone gets up in arms about but they never happen. If you look through the tripletail threads you will see a common theme of people sounding alarms and speculating what 'they heard' Almost like one of those chain emails you get and people keep on forwarding them on even though they aren't true.

There was an actual proposed tripletail limit under consideration, and scheduled to be discussed at one of the commission meetings. It was not passed, and the letter writing campaign pretty much ended consideration of the proposed regulation, at least for now.

Shooting down government growth before it happens is always much easier than rolling it back once it becomes law. Obamacare is a great example, but the same principle holds with wildlife regulations.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

There was an actual proposed tripletail limit under consideration, and scheduled to be discussed at one of the commission meetings. It was not passed, and the letter writing campaign pretty much ended consideration of the proposed regulation, at least for now.

Shooting down government growth before it happens is always much easier than rolling it back once it becomes law. Obamacare is a great example, but the same principle holds with wildlife regulations.

You got a link that says that any letters ended the 'proposed' regulation?

"proposed regulations" there are proposed regulations every single day that never make it off the floor of the governing body because they are junk, just like this tripletail thing. It was all a bunch of WAY overhyped junk. Reminded me of the overhyped gun grab that was 'proposed' remember that? Not one regulation came out of it, except now I can't go and buy .22 ammo because a bunch of folks got paranoid, thats another topic though

and what in the world does 'proposed limit under consideration' even mean? Nothing

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

"proposed regulations" there are proposed regulations every single day that never make it off the floor of the governing body because they are junk, just like this tripletail thing. It was all a bunch of WAY overhyped junk. Reminded me of the overhyped gun grab that was 'proposed' remember that? Not one regulation came out of it, except now I can't go and buy .22 ammo because a bunch of folks got paranoid, thats another topic though

and what in the world does 'proposed limit under consideration' even mean? Nothing

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/news/36868

Seems like it was more than an "overhyped" rumor when the governing body with the authority to establish the regulation issues an official "Notice of Intent."

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/news/36868

Seems like it was more than an "overhyped" rumor when the governing body with the authority to establish the regulation issues an official "Notice of Intent."

I asked if you had a link to where letters did anything?

There are steps to get something passed, notice of intent isn't the law, there is a public comment session before anything gets passed (and why its important to actually show up and voice your concern) they also use terms such as declaration of emergency as in below, but there ain't no emergency, just legal jargon:

1. To Consider Declaration of Emergency to Open Deer Season on Kisatchie National Forest during the Period November 22-28, 2013
2. To Consider Declaration of Emergency for Additional Buck Season Dates in Deer Area 7

[MathGeek]

Discussing science is more illuminating that politics.

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d...1o-01-2012.pdf

The above link is a beautiful report illustrating numerous important management principles.

1. More restrictive limits can produce counter-intuitive outcomes, and the knee jerk ignorant supposition that more regulation is better conservation is often wrong.

2. It is best policy to insist on thorough science before implementing more restrictive limits. The fundamental scientific findings in the report would have been the same had the science been performed before the limit change.

3. Habitat is the most important limiting factor in future game availability. Sporting limits can be important, but they are almost always secondary to habitat.

4. Wishing for trophy animals and implementing more restrictive policies to get them involves trade offs. Careful science is needed to accurately understand these trade offs.

Hopefully, both the LDWF and the sporting public in Louisiana will learn from this mistake and be more inclined to demand the science up front before passing more restrictive regulations rather than afterward when the restrictive regulations have a negative impact on the resource and on the sportsmen and women that enjoy the resource.

A key point in the report is:

Novinger (1984) listed the qualitative criteria for minimum length limits as waters exhibiting the following conditions: 1) high fishing mortality, 2) low recruitment, 3) fast growth, and 4) low natural mortality.

These same criteria can be evaluated for specks and an analogous set of criteria can be considered when weighing antler restrictions and other big buck strategies.

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I was making some points about big gov't and small gov't by bringing in examples from different areas that had already been discussed in some detail in Salty Cajun and were thus familiar with many readers.

I was also illuminating some basic principles of wildlife management by referring to familiar examples. Comparison with familiar examples is a fairly common discussion approach.

Big gov't solutions usually involve increased regulations, increased costs, increased paperwork, and greater complexity.

Small gov't solutions usually involve reduced overall regulation, reduced costs, reduced complexity, and greater individual liberty while more likely to achieve the management goals.

I love Louisiana. But the amount of regulations one needs to deal with even with simple things like hunting and fishing are amazing, not to even mention the paperwork and regulations to start a business.

Suppose someone wants to buy a boat, launch at Calcasieu Point and fish in Turner's Bay. Let's count up the tasks involved to do it legally:

Acquire LA fishing license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Acquire LA saltwater license. Burden for resident license is much higher. $$$

Buying resident licenses requires one's vehicle registrations, one's driver's license, and one's voter registration to all be first transferred to Louisiana.

Register boat with LDWF. Apply numbers to boat according to regs. Paperwork and $$$.

Register trailer with LA BMV. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Get inspection sticker for trailer. Paperwork, $$$, and personal appearance required.

Boaters born after 1984 also need a boater education card which they must carry with them.

In addition, to the required fishing licenses, a state issued photo ID must also be carried.

The state fishing regulation book is 55 pages long, though with care, I think one can be in good shape with the general fishing regulations (5 pages) and the saltwater specific regulations (6 pages).

Fishing in a WMA has a bunch more rules.

Fishing offshore requires an additional permit.

Even more steps of licensing, registration, and regulation are required of a first time duck hunter.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Suppose I go and complain about the trailer inspection, which is a LA requirement that most other states do not see the need for. They'll tell me I'm in the wrong place and that I've wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about the silly rule about not even possessing lead shot while duck hunting. Again, I'm in the wrong place and wasted my time.

Suppose I complain about getting cited for possessing a redfish 5 miles out. They probably won't even be able to determine if I'm in the right place or not.

One of the pernicious features of big gov't is there are so many different bureaucracies whose regulations, permitting, $$$, and paperwork requirements need to be simultaneously satisfied when doing a single thing.

I've had an opportunity to move to 7 different states in my adult life. Complying with each state's income tax requirements (state tax return, estimated taxes, etc.) has actually been much simpler (less paperwork, fewer departments, fewer checks, fewer personal appearances, much less total time etc.) in each case than complying with each state's hunting or fishing requirements.

Are you telling me that it is right and reasonable that hunting or fishing should have more burdensome requirements than paying income taxes?

Sounds to me like youre just a cheap math teacher that doesnt like to follow the laws...

Im glad out of state licenses cost more than resident, registering and inspecting trailers is a good idea. Do you want a bunch of unsafe trailers riding all over the road? Since when is boaters safety and knowing the basic rules of marine navigation bad? Not everybody is honest, photo ids tell who you are. BTW Ive never shown the WLF agent my fishing license and he asked to see my id. Why do you want to carry lead shot duck hunting, are you going to shoot some rabbits out of the blind? And the list goes on....


#draconiansanctions

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by meaux fishing

Sounds to me like youre just a cheap math teacher that doesnt like to follow the laws...

Im glad out of state licenses cost more than resident, registering and inspecting trailers is a good idea. Do you want a bunch of unsafe trailers riding all over the road? Since when is boaters safety and knowing the basic rules of marine navigation bad? Not everybody is honest, photo ids tell who you are. BTW Ive never shown the WLF agent my fishing license and he asked to see my id. Why do you want to carry lead shot duck hunting, are you going to shoot some rabbits out of the blind? And the list goes on....


#draconiansanctions

Finally somebody else gets it. That is just it. He doesn't want to pay money for anything, and he wants there to be minimal regulation so he can do whatever he wants. I just looked at the deer regs that MG so vehemently opposes because they are too long (8 pages), and I see nothing that is ridiculous or absurd. In fact, half of that explains which zones are open when, and which parishes are open in what zones.

I'm not sure what this issue is with lead shot and duck hunting. I know several people that would jump at the opportunity to have lead in the duck blind because there are many that do not like steel shot. You think someone wouldn't shoot lead at a duck? How do you police that? Check EVERY blind? And you oppose increased cost of enforcement, but want lead in the duck blind?

[Goooh]

Now it's getting good

[MathGeek]

It's easy to start slinging mud and pointing to personal motives. I don't mind paying the fees, even $90 for an out of state fishing license is a great deal. But the mounds and mounds of regulations and multiple permits and licenses. If there was one stop shopping, go on the internet check all the right boxes, and enter your credit card, I'd be (personally) much happier. But it's more like 4 trips to the BMV, three vehicle and trailer inspections, mail in the boat registration paperwork, wait forever in BassPro for the fishing license, etc. etc. and then repeat each step at regular intervals. (I think some of the BMV stuff can be done by mail or internet after the first time).

But I am sympathetic to the costs + hassle to the working man who doesn't have lots of time for running all the errands or lots of $$$ for all the fees. And the bureaucracy for starting most kinds of businesses in Louisiana are a much bigger hassle. I've owned small businesses in OH, NC, NY, MI, CO, and now LA. In LA, we've pretty much streamlined the business to only home based consulting, because the bureaucratic barriers to brick and mortar operations are daunting. Nearly any physical product, hiring employees, moving a shovel full of dirt, etc. is a big bureaucratic hassle. We had very nice lab facilities in OH, NC, MI, and CO, but LA is much closer to NY in terms of bureaucratic barriers to various small business operations.

This creeping government growth may seem "reasonable and necessary" at every incremental step, but it is really holding the state back.