Weirs Closed

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by duckman1911

Hey smalls I can tell you the difference between them grasses. They all spelled different.lmao
Just messin with you man.
I aint got a freaking clue.

lmao. Let me spell the scientific names. That will give you a headache.

I've attached a document that shows some salinity tolerances of various plants. It is based on some older research, but it was some of the first research done on marsh vegetation in Louisiana, and I believe the same study was used to create the first vegetation type maps of Coastal Louisiana. Because this graph shows a range of salinity tolerances, salinities at the higher ends of those bars will produce lethal environments at extended periods.

Oystergrass, or smooth cordgrass, is probably one of the most salt tolerant plants you will find in that marsh. However, it only occurs in the lower salt marsh. It is excluded from higher areas by wiregrass, or marshhay cordgrass. Marshhay cordgrass dominants the high marsh, which is what I would classify most of the cameron-creole as, except for the far east stretches.

The problem that was occurring in the Cameron-Creole leading up to the construction of the weirs was marshhay die-offs due to extended high salinity, but probably more so high water. Marshhay cannot tolerate extended periods of high water, which is why it is restricted to the high marsh. The marshhay was dying from a combination of stressors, but oystergrass could not colonize the areas fast enough. Thus, you had areas converting to open water.

The eastern stretches of that marsh are probably more dominated by bulrushes, cattails, and Sagitarria species, which are on the lower end of salinity tolerances.

I have seen bulrush tolerate salinities of up to 23 ppt, but the grass was dormant and not growing much. Heavy rains the following year resulted in the plants growing considerably.

["W"]

Originally Posted by Smalls

J, I don't know what to tell you man. I'll ask you the same questions I asked W (which I got no answer to btw). Do you know the difference between oystergrass and wiregrass? Or between wiregrass and jamaican sawgrass? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to make a point. The vegetation composition was different historically from what it is now.

Yeah, short term spikes happen, and its not going to kill the grass. That isn't the purpose of the weirs. The weirs were put in to decrease or hold in check a long term increase in salinity. It is the long term increase in salinity that is detrimental to a marsh, not the short term.

As far as hogs go, yeah, you're right, they are tearing up the marsh. What does that have to do with the weirs though?

I've said it before, I've got plenty of reports and papers on the marsh, and there are plenty more to be found online. It's just a matter of who wants to read them.

It is clear I can't say anything that is going to change your opinion. I don't know what I said to make you think I'm belittling you, because I'm not. I've also never said I was an authority on the issue either; that is the assumption everyone jumps to. I'm just speaking from my experiences and research.

But for God's sake, can anyone on here tell me the difference between oystergrass, wiregrass, and jamaican sawgrass?

Is this close?

[Reggoh]

Originally Posted by Smalls

But for God's sake, can anyone on here tell me the difference between oystergrass, wiregrass, and jamaican sawgrass?

I've been following this post because it has been fairly educational for someone like myself that doesn't have a background as a fishing guide, marsh restoration specialist, fish biologist, or wetlands biologist.

But for God's sake, can you please explain why you keep asking this question?

It was starting to frustrate me so I decided to look up these plants. The only one I could find is the Jamiacan Sawgrass (Cladium jamaicense)... the other two I can't even find a reference to them online.

Spill the beans... what's the importance? Or is it only important that the average joe person doesn't know the difference so we aren't qualified to have an opinion?

[Jadams]

Originally Posted by Smalls

lmao. Let me spell the scientific names. That will give you a headache.

I've attached a document that shows some salinity tolerances of various plants. It is based on some older research, but it was some of the first research done on marsh vegetation in Louisiana, and I believe the same study was used to create the first vegetation type maps of Coastal Louisiana. Because this graph shows a range of salinity tolerances, salinities at the higher ends of those bars will produce lethal environments at extended periods.

Oystergrass, or smooth cordgrass, is probably one of the most salt tolerant plants you will find in that marsh. However, it only occurs in the lower salt marsh. It is excluded from higher areas by wiregrass, or marshhay cordgrass. Marshhay cordgrass dominants the high marsh, which is what I would classify most of the cameron-creole as, except for the far east stretches.

The problem that was occurring in the Cameron-Creole leading up to the construction of the weirs was marshhay die-offs due to extended high salinity, but probably more so high water. Marshhay cannot tolerate extended periods of high water, which is why it is restricted to the high marsh. The marshhay was dying from a combination of stressors, but oystergrass could not colonize the areas fast enough. Thus, you had areas converting to open water.

The eastern stretches of that marsh are probably more dominated by bulrushes, cattails, and Sagitarria species, which are on the lower end of salinity tolerances.

I have seen bulrush tolerate salinities of up to 23 ppt, but the grass was dormant and not growing much. Heavy rains the following year resulted in the plants growing considerably.

Yea 2 types grow in salt Jamaican grows in fresh... Wth hell is ur point??? Big nuts got a degree??? Guess what I got one 2!! Who gives a ****...


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[Jadams]

Can u show me acreage loss over a time span pre weirs and post weirs I bet u the loss average is the same with the exception of hurricane years


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[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Jadams

Oyster grass grows in saltwater marsh Jamaican grows in freshwater


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Correct. Thank you for kindly answering. Some people (WALTRIP!) just fail to answer simple questions.

My point is, there isn't a whole lot of that back there anymore. There used to be a lot of sturdy bulrush (or saltmarsh bulrush as some call it), in fact it was the dominant grass, but it isn't there anymore either. The marsh has converted to plant species that are not as desirable for wildlife, and are more susceptible to dying off under certain conditions.

One issue I had with the operation of the weirs when it switched to contractors was when they were left closed for several weeks during the summer of 2012. We had a few heavy rains during that time span, and the water level got about 2 feet above the marsh, at least where there were a few plantings going on. All of those plants died, and a lot of the natural marsh around them was affected as well.

[Jadams]

Who owns the weir?? If it ain't federal I might know a guy that can do us all a favor taking donations for lawyer.... Can't get in too much trouble for criminal damage to property 1 yr probation and some restitution.


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[Jadams]

Can't block off a navigable water anyways.


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[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Smalls

I've attached a document that shows some salinity tolerances of various plants. It is based on some older research, but it was some of the first research done on marsh vegetation in Louisiana, and I believe the same study was used to create the first vegetation type maps of Coastal Louisiana. Because this graph shows a range of salinity tolerances, salinities at the higher ends of those bars will produce lethal environments at extended periods.

The eastern stretches of that marsh are probably more dominated by bulrushes, cattails, and Sagitarria species, which are on the lower end of salinity tolerances.

Thanks for posting the pdf. Great stuff.

What do you have against bulushes and cattails? I know they are not great duck habitat, but they are hardy, they will slow a tidal surge, and are fairly good at holding the ground underneath them from washing away.

What am I missing? It it just a personal thing, or are they actually bad from the point of view of preserving the marsh?

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Reggoh

It was starting to frustrate me so I decided to look up these plants. The only one I could find is the Jamiacan Sawgrass (Cladium jamaicense)... the other two I can't even find a reference to them online.

Spill the beans... what's the importance? Or is it only important that the average joe person doesn't know the difference so we aren't qualified to have an opinion?

Sorry, I was using the names that most people are familiar with. The accepted name of oystergrass is Smooth cordgrass (Spartina alterniflora), and the accepted name of wiregrass is marshhay cordgrass (Spartina patens).

The Spartinas are more salt hardy species. The difference is, S. alterniflora can tolerate more water than S. patens can. The two forms dominant different parts of the marsh. Patens typically dominates high marsh, Alterniflora dominates the lower marsh. In an natural setting, Patens will be limited in where it grows by water, while it will limit where Alterniflora can grow.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Thanks for posting the pdf. Great stuff.

What do you have against bulushes and cattails? I know they are not great duck habitat, but they are hardy, they will slow a tidal surge, and are fairly good at holding the ground underneath them from washing away.

What am I missing? It it just a personal thing, or are they actually bad from the point of view of preserving the marsh?

I don't know where you got that idea. I don't have anything against bulrushes and cattails, aside for the fact that cattails are highly invasive.

From the standpoint of marsh conservation, cattails and bulrushes aren't bad. For wildlife management, there are better species. Cattails and bulrushes will choke out a lot of other beneficial species, and will take over large expanses of water.

Pretty much any freshwater project we had was a bulrush project. They are very sturdy plants, can tolerate salinities a lot better than some of the other fresh species, and, as you said, are good at dampening waves or surge. They spread like wildfire under the right conditions, and if you are trying to shore up a canal bank or lake shore, bulrush is the way to go.

["W"]

USo Smalls since you don't do this anymore what was they paying you per hour to plant and study grass? $7.50 -$10 an hour?
Do you realize Jarred and Me have other careers that we make great livings doing plus we guide damn near all our days off and we are making from $65-70 per hour to fish?

So we have great motivation to be concerned about our Lake and the future but we are NOT dumb and know a lot more about this system then a guy out looking at grass all day!

[Jadams]

Jamaica grass stops 14 ft hurricane tide surge... That's all I've learned today!


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[Reggoh]

Originally Posted by Smalls

Sorry, I was using the names that most people are familiar with. The accepted name of oystergrass is Smooth cordgrass (Spartina alterniflora), and the accepted name of wiregrass is marshhay cordgrass (Spartina patens).

The Spartinas are more salt hardy species. The difference is, S. alterniflora can tolerate more water than S. patens can. The two forms dominant different parts of the marsh. Patens typically dominates high marsh, Alterniflora dominates the lower marsh. In an natural setting, Patens will be limited in where it grows by water, while it will limit where Alterniflora can grow.

I think most people that fish and hunt around Southwest LA know that there are plants that are more or less susceptible to saltwater intrusion... we may not know all the technical stuff but I think we get the gist.

Onward with the discussion!!

["W"]

Originally Posted by Jadams

Jamaica grass stops 14 ft hurricane tide surge... That's all I've learned today!


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And a guy who spent 3 summers picking grass has 50 years of expert knowledge of weir marsh

People who spend over half a year on water are clueless

[Jadams]

I just want some dynamite donations!


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[Smalls]

Originally Posted by "W"

USo Smalls since you don't do this anymore what was they paying you per hour to plant and study grass? $7.50 -$10 an hour?
Do you realize Jarred and Me have other careers that we make great livings doing plus we guide damn near all our days off and we are making from $65-70 per hour to fish?

So we have great motivation to be concerned about our Lake and the future but we are NOT dumb and know a lot more about this system then a guy out looking at grass all day!

What does it make a difference to you what I made? Good for ya'll, I still don't understand why ya'll feel as though I'm disrespecting you.

Where have I said anything to the effect that ya'll are wrong? Where have I said that you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm merely presenting information on a part of the ecosystem that you, Waltrip, continually avoid openly discussing. You continually avoided my questions to you, because it didn't fit your agenda to answer them.

There is no open discussion on the marsh with you. It has always been, and will always be, a one-sided discussion with you because you will not listen to anything anyone else says that is to the contrary.

Do you deny that?

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Smalls

I don't know where you got that idea. I don't have anything against bulrushes and cattails, aside for the fact that cattails are highly invasive.

From the standpoint of marsh conservation, cattails and bulrushes aren't bad. For wildlife management, there are better species. Cattails and bulrushes will choke out a lot of other beneficial species, and will take over large expanses of water.

Pretty much any freshwater project we had was a bulrush project. They are very sturdy plants, can tolerate salinities a lot better than some of the other fresh species, and, as you said, are good at dampening waves or surge. They spread like wildfire under the right conditions, and if you are trying to shore up a canal bank or lake shore, bulrush is the way to go.

Thanks for clarifying. I may have misremembered something you said or misattributed something someone else said. These threads have been moving pretty fast.

[Mr T]

please send some of that salt to Vermilion Bay!

[Jadams]

Show me where the weir has done anything to land loss!!! Remember scientific data speaks more than guides a that see it everydat


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