Weirs Closed

["W"]

I made one phone call to one person who has been working on info about weirs, he informed me the guy who controls weirs is a big duck hunter back there.... And once I get his contact info I will post it!!

Text and call that bastard till he changes his number

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by "W"

I made one phone call to one person who has been working on info about weirs, he informed me the guy who controls weirs is a big duck hunter back there.... And once I get his contact info I will post it!!

Text and call that bastard till he changes his number

not cool

[bgizzle]

Originally Posted by noodle creek

Smalls, no disrespect intended, is the marsh on the west side of west cove going to eventually erode up to hwy 27, or is it more of a saltwater marsh that can tolerate high salt content? Also, how much has west cove eroded since 1956 when the land loss data started being obtained?

These conversations used to consist of you and duck butter saying that the weirs aren't managed for "weigeon grass" but on this thread it turned into "it is a NWR and all NWR are managed for waterfowl."

If different people can obtain contracts to manage the weirs, how can we be so sure that they really are being used for their purpose of stopping erosion, and not just for the good of duck hunters in that marsh?

If the erosion issue is the number one priority for our estuary, and the answer to the west cove question is yes, then why aren't there weirs over there?

I completely understand the good intent behind the weirs, I just feel that if we could rock the ship channel, maybe mother nature ought to be left alone to do her thing.

GOLD!!!


"Go ahead, share your opinion! I won't cry"

[rustyb]

Where is Clampy? Our resident grass expert!!!

[toodeep]

right now every one is crying because you don't have the fish you are suppose to, next you will be crying when the marsh is gone and big lake will butt up to the intercostal. if you need more testimonials look in Leeville Louisiana that use to be fresh water and have cypress trees every where. now there is saltwater to Cut off. but the weirs should be open. why not make a roll over for bay boats

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by noodle creek

Smalls, no disrespect intended, is the marsh on the west side of west cove going to eventually erode up to hwy 27, or is it more of a saltwater marsh that can tolerate high salt content? Also, how much has west cove eroded since 1956 when the land loss data started being obtained?

These conversations used to consist of you and duck butter saying that the weirs aren't managed for "weigeon grass" but on this thread it turned into "it is a NWR and all NWR are managed for waterfowl."

If different people can obtain contracts to manage the weirs, how can we be so sure that they really are being used for their purpose of stopping erosion, and not just for the good of duck hunters in that marsh?

If the erosion issue is the number one priority for our estuary, and the answer to the west cove question is yes, then why aren't there weirs over there?

I completely understand the good intent behind the weirs, I just feel that if we could rock the ship channel, maybe mother nature ought to be left alone to do her thing.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what makes the west cove marsh more sustainable. It is just as fresh as a lot of Cameron-Creole is. Looking back at a few land loss figures, there is not near as much conversion to open water as in the Cameron-Creole. For what ever reason, that area is more sustainable. I've got a report on the hydrologic history of the Sabine/Calcasieu basin that might have some information on that. I haven't studied that area as extensively as I have the Cameron-Creole. It's too large for me to post here, but if you'd like, I could e-mail it to you if you want to take a look at it. Pretty cool report with a lot of testimony from biologists and marsh managers from around the area.

I'll send that to anyone that may want to read it. Used to you could find the whole report on lacoast.gov, but I have no clue what happened to it. I had even talked to the people that manage the website and the whole report was put on there.

As for the widgeon grass/NWR conversation: that was not my meaning when I made that statement about the NWR. The National Wildlife Refuge was set up to manage waterfowl habitat. The weirs were not just set up to manage the NWR, but the Cameron-Creole watershed as a whole. I don't think the NWR even makes up half of the watershed.

Honestly, to the question of the contracts, there really is no way to know if they are going to manage the weirs the way they were intended to be managed.

If the channel could be rocked, it may be another level of salinity control. That question should be asked of the people that devised the original plan. Why wasn't that considered? Or if it was, what made it so that it was not the plan implemented?

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by toodeep

right now every one is crying because you don't have the fish you are suppose to, next you will be crying when the marsh is gone and big lake will butt up to the intercostal. if you need more testimonials look in Leeville Louisiana that use to be fresh water and have cypress trees every where. now there is saltwater to Cut off. but the weirs should be open. why not make a roll over for bay boats

that side of the state is the poster child for saltwater intrusion, erosion, subsidence, man fricking with nature, etc., I often wonder if some of the folks on this site have ever ventured over that way, its where I used to do most my saltwater fishing and every year I go down there the change is clear as day to me. My hippie bro in-law and our fams go down to Grand Isle every year for the last 5 and he even noticed that some of the little islands of marsh we were fishing have disappeared, he has some spots marked on his phone that are literally not there anymore.

Otherwise, I think the fishing this year is a little off all over the place due to the weather, even in north Louisiana. People are complaining about the fishing up there with white perch, with all kinds of interesting theories The winter time bite lasted way into March this year when you on normal years would be catching fish spawning. Just last weekend everyone fishing the banks were complaining about the lack of fish, we were able to find a bunch of fish still staged out waiting to spawn. 17 of the fish were females still full of eggs, and that is strange for late April on the lake we were fishing.

And to add to the everything is late comment: wading birds like Great Egrets that you can set a clock by when they arrive and start making nests in February were a few weeks behind schedule as well. We normally have chicks ready to fly right now, but most are still sitting on eggs or they just hatched in the last 2 days. Last week there were roseate spoonbills just starting nests which is a month behind schedule. Many other casual observations as well

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Smalls

In all honesty, I'm not sure what makes the west cove marsh more sustainable. It is just as fresh as a lot of Cameron-Creole is. Looking back at a few land loss figures, there is not near as much conversion to open water as in the Cameron-Creole. For what ever reason, that area is more sustainable.

A few possibilities, not mutually exclusive:

1. West cove is less connected to the ship channel. This means, on average, salinities in west cove are lower than on the east side. Less salt -> less land loss.

2. It may have a slightly higher average soil height when the channel was dug. Even 6" would make a big difference to how far beyond the bay salt penetrated into the marsh.

3. Possibly different soil types or different pH. I have not seen any studies, but I'd bet salinity tolerance depends a bit on soil pH.

[toodeep]

with the new bridge you can see the erosion month by month if you pass often enough from the bridge. I grew up in Grand Lake grad of 98 I hated the weirs just as much as W and now live in Raceland and fish grand isle often and cant beg for the weirs enough. but it is too late to fix this side of the state without lots of money.

[noodle creek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

that side of the state is the poster child for saltwater intrusion, erosion, subsidence, man fricking with nature, etc., I often wonder if some of the folks on this site have ever ventured over that way, its where I used to do most my saltwater fishing and every year I go down there the change is clear as day to me. My hippie bro in-law and our fams go down to Grand Isle every year for the last 5 and he even noticed that some of the little islands of marsh we were fishing have disappeared, he has some spots marked on his phone that are literally not there anymore.

Otherwise, I think the fishing this year is a little off all over the place due to the weather, even in north Louisiana. People are complaining about the fishing up there with white perch, with all kinds of interesting theories The winter time bite lasted way into March this year when you on normal years would be catching fish spawning. Just last weekend everyone fishing the banks were complaining about the lack of fish, we were able to find a bunch of fish still staged out waiting to spawn. 17 of the fish were females still full of eggs, and that is strange for late April on the lake we were fishing.

Can the eastern side of the state honestly be put in a fair comparison with our estuary? If you say that Sabine and Big Lake are nowhere near the same, then how on earth can the eastern side of the state be compared to Big Lake?

[toodeep]

why cant it be compared do you have different water. same gulf water flow in the ship channel there and come in the pass over here.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by toodeep

with the new bridge you can see the erosion month by month if you pass often enough from the bridge. I grew up in Grand Lake grad of 98 I hated the weirs just as much as W and now live in Raceland and fish grand isle often and cant beg for the weirs enough. but it is too late to fix this side of the state without lots of money.

I love the Bayou Lafourche area, Port Fourchon, and Grand Isle. The drive across the bridge is shocking and sad to see all that marsh gone, just gone.

One day a hurricane is going to take it all, and the Gulf of Mexico will begin at Golden Meadow, maybe Houma. It's a sad sight and a sad thought.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by noodle creek

Can the eastern side of the state honestly be put in a fair comparison with our estuary? If you say that Sabine and Big Lake are nowhere near the same, then how on earth can the eastern side of the state be compared to Big Lake?

Just pointing out what manmade interference can do. Over there the marshes are starved for sediment and freshwater from the MS River being leveed and saltwater intrusion from all the straightline oil/gas canals (you can see thousands of them on Google Earth) amongst other things. When the MS River flooded in 1927 the US Army Corps of Engineers brought on the levees so that it wouldn't ever happen again. In their mind they were protecting thousands of peoples' lives (they did if you think about it), but they didn't realize the damage to the marshes they were doing. (They did what they intended but didn't realize the consequences)

On the Big Lake side of the world, the ship channel is similarto the straight line oil/gas canals in that it brings in saltwater, and there WAS actual mitigation for this (the saltwater barrier) and later the weirs. The saltwater barrier was installed over 50 years ago because they knew the ship channel would bring in salty water and that would make its way north into the farms and that would be detrimental to agriculture (nothing to do with CCA or wigeongrass). Saltwater getting into areas that can't tolerate excess salinity is bad, it kills and is difficult to get back, and marsh plantings are pretty expensive. Its best to take preventative measures and keep land intact rather than have to restore it back. Marshes are one of the most productive ecosystems in the world, and they also serve a very vital role in hurricane protection.

That is one of the things that people often overlook is the saltwater barrier installed a LONG time ago. The people back then knew saltwater is not good but we never seem to talk about the saltwater barrier for some reason? Why don't we try and get that removed so we can catch trout up in Allen Parish?

[toodeep]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Just pointing out what manmade interference can do. Over there the marshes are starved for sediment and freshwater from the MS River being leveed and saltwater intrusion from all the straightline oil/gas canals (you can see thousands of them on Google Earth) amongst other things. When the MS River flooded in 1927 the US Army Corps of Engineers brought on the levees so that it wouldn't ever happen again. In their mind they were protecting thousands of peoples' lives (they did if you think about it), but they didn't realize the damage to the marshes they were doing. (They did what they intended but didn't realize the consequences)

On the Big Lake side of the world, the ship channel is similarto the straight line oil/gas canals in that it brings in saltwater, and there WAS actual mitigation for this (the saltwater barrier) and later the weirs. The saltwater barrier was installed over 50 years ago because they knew the ship channel would bring in salty water and that would make its way north into the farms and that would be detrimental to agriculture (nothing to do with CCA or wigeongrass). Saltwater getting into areas that can't tolerate excess salinity is bad, it kills and is difficult to get back, and marsh plantings are pretty expensive. Its best to take preventative measures and keep land intact rather than have to restore it back. Marshes are one of the most productive ecosystems in the world, and they also serve a very vital role in hurricane protection.

That is one of the things that people often overlook is the saltwater barrier installed a LONG time ago. The people back then knew saltwater is not good but we never seem to talk about the saltwater barrier for some reason? Why don't we try and get that removed so we can catch trout up in Allen Parish?

Correct at the same time when they installed the SALT WATER barrier they installed the weirs to do the same or big lake would look like the east side of the state right now.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

A few possibilities, not mutually exclusive:

1. West cove is less connected to the ship channel. This means, on average, salinities in west cove are lower than on the east side. Less salt -> less land loss.

2. It may have a slightly higher average soil height when the channel was dug. Even 6" would make a big difference to how far beyond the bay salt penetrated into the marsh.

3. Possibly different soil types or different pH. I have not seen any studies, but I'd bet salinity tolerance depends a bit on soil pH.

Valid hypotheses. I don't know about #3 though. Most of the soils are the same. You have banckers, Creole, clovelly, scatlake, aquents, and udifluvents in both areas. A big part of my thesis was the effect of soils on vegetation, and a lot of Cameron parish is the same stuff. You've got about 40% of the parish underlain by allemands, bancker, and Creole soils. Add scatlake and clovelly to that list, and the Top 5 acreages by soil type account for 50% of the total land area in Cameron parish.

I'm not sure about the pHs, but if I remember right, most of them are about the same. They are all marsh soils (then again, what isn't in Cameron).

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by toodeep

why cant it be compared do you have different water. same gulf water flow in the ship channel there and come in the pass over here.

Add to that the very high number of man made cuts through the marsh system on that side of the state.

[Big pond]

Originally Posted by Smalls

Valid hypotheses. I don't know about #3 though. Most of the soils are the same. You have banckers, Creole, clovelly, scatlake, aquents, and udifluvents in both areas. A big part of my thesis was the effect of soils on vegetation, and a lot of Cameron parish is the same stuff. You've got about 40% of the parish underlain by allemands, bancker, and Creole soils. Add scatlake and clovelly to that list, and the Top 5 acreages by soil type account for 50% of the total land area in Cameron parish.

I'm not sure about the pHs, but if I remember right, most of them are about the same. They are all marsh soils (then again, what isn't in Cameron).

I don't know any scientific names but I dig in the ground for a living and the soil around hackberry and south has a very high clay content compared to the rest of Cameron that does not have clay and caves in as u dig

[toodeep]

Originally Posted by Goooh

Add to that the very high number of man made cuts through the marsh system on that side of the state.

and there is also more cuts to the gulf. but the salinity is no different. people are complaining of erosion along the ship channel. open or remove the weirs and watch the erosion. you better go take pictures to show you kids cause it will not be there in 20 years

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Big pond

I don't know any scientific names but I dig in the ground for a living and the soil around hackberry and south has a very high clay content compared to the rest of Cameron that does not have clay and caves in as u dig

Yeah I'll agree with you there. When we had projects over on that side of the lake, specifically over in Black Lake, that stuff was some heavy clays! On the east side of the lake you get a lot of mucky stuff, and in some areas its straight organic! Those are the areas that it doesn't get a whole lot of time out of the water, so the microbes and all those little things don't get the chance to break that stuff down.

Actually, the more I look at the west cove area, the more differences I see. The rim of west cove has alot of clayey soils. There are still some of those bancker mucks mixed in, but that rim is a lot of clay. So that could have something to do with why the west side of the system handles salinities better.

Now I don't remember everything from my soils class, but if I remember right, I think clay soils have a higher sodium exchange capacity or something like that. So those soils are likely able to handle saline conditions better than more organic soils, which is what the east side of the lake is made up of.

Ironically enough, that 40% of the parish really doesn't include the area around West Cove. It is made up of soils that make up less than 25% of the entire land area. That quite honestly could be part of the reason the marsh around west cove has been able to sustain itself. Clay soils act differently than organic soils.

[noodle creek]

Originally Posted by toodeep

why cant it be compared do you have different water. same gulf water flow in the ship channel there and come in the pass over here.

I think big lake and sabine are comparable, others on here say they aren't, but now want to bring up the eastern side of the state.