Duck Hunting Baiting Question

[Tete Dur]

I am in a new lease this year for duck season and the farmer doesn't cut his second crop of rice. He leaves it standing so there is voluntary rice that grows which would normally be his second crop. After cutting the first crop he does NOT flood the fields for his second crop. Everything that comes up is strictly voluntary. Some of the other blinds on the lease like to just make potholes in the stubble/voluntary second crop for big duck season. The farmer will actually use his buffalo for these pot holes for the blinds.

My question is, is this baiting since the second crop was not harvested even though he didn't flood the fields for the second crop to grow properly? Do we have to get the entire cut buffaloed to be legal?

[calcutta37]

No just choot em.

[jlincecum]

That's a fine line. Would be hard to argue it as a normal farming practice unless he did the whole field. Personally I would have the whole field done. Despite the baiting question, potholes don't look natural in a large field. And the birds don't care if it's standing or on the ground, it's still food

[Tete Dur]

I'm normally an advocate of the more open water the better but some of the guys on the lease said that they have had much better success in the past with smaller potholes than having it completely open.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by Tete Dur

I am in a new lease this year for duck season and the farmer doesn't cut his second crop of rice. He leaves it standing so there is voluntary rice that grows which would normally be his second crop. After cutting the first crop he does NOT flood the fields for his second crop. Everything that comes up is strictly voluntary. Some of the other blinds on the lease like to just make potholes in the stubble/voluntary second crop for big duck season. The farmer will actually use his buffalo for these pot holes for the blinds.

My question is, is this baiting since the second crop was not harvested even though he didn't flood the fields for the second crop to grow properly? Do we have to get the entire cut buffaloed to be legal?

Think this is illegal

[Tete Dur]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

Think this is illegal

Yep...just called the Lake Charles WLF enforcement office.

[corym39]

Yes definantly considered baiting. I remember few years back GW's were actually flagging blinds that they considered manipulating or knocking down 2nd crop rice. Very grey area law here.

[Raymond]

2009 many tickets were issued after Gustav and Ike came through because second crop could not be harvested and everyone hunted over it. Guess your guys have beed lucky but eventually it will run out.

[specktator]

I think u can hunt over it, u just can't knock it down. Right?

[kibb]

Originally Posted by specktator

I think u can hunt over it, u just can't knock it down. Right?

This is the correct answer.

[Micah]

Originally Posted by kibb

This is the correct answer.

X2. You can not purposely knock it down. You or your dog may "accidentally" down it down while retrieving your birds.

[corym39]

You can't even crawfish in it. Boat knocking down 2nd crop rice is considered baiting.

[yellalilyslicker]

Originally Posted by jlincecum

That's a fine line. Would be hard to argue it as a normal farming practice unless he did the whole field. Personally I would have the whole field done. Despite the baiting question, potholes don't look natural in a large field. And the birds don't care if it's standing or on the ground, it's still food

X2 Good advice here.

[calcutta37]

Can u plow it under 1 time.

[Tete Dur]

Game warden told me that as long as it was manipulated prior to coming to seed after the first crop was cut then it is legal. He said that nothing that has come into seed now can be touched, but it can still be hunted over. Over time it will fall naturally begin to fall down.

[rdenison]

"After cutting the first crop he does NOT flood the fields for his second crop."

If this is the case, any rice that comes up is voluntary, therefore, there was not 2nd crop. I was born and raised on rice farm. This is the standard practice: plant your 1st crop in the March, cut your 1st crop in August, if the 1st crop is cut early enough and was a good enough crop, you fertilize the stubble (vegetation left after the 1st crop), flood it again, then cut the 2nd crop in October.

In this case, the farmer never flooded the stubble after he cut the 1st crop, in probably August, therefore, any rice that comes up is strictly voluntary and there was no 2nd crop. This is no different if you had a field that was never planted in grain, grew up in weeds, seeded out and flood it and hunted it.

IMO, this is not even close to baiting. If so, we have been hunting under baited fields for 4 decades, because this was our standard procedure, i.e. cut the rice in August, disk or buffalo pot holes in our cuts that contained blinds in the early month on November and hunt during duck season. Also, IMO, it is better to just go with pot poles, this way the duck see the open water, land, then migrate and feed in flooded stubble, also the geese seem to like the stubble as well.

In conclusion, I don't think it is bating, as long as the, the farmer did not flood for 2nd crop, the 2nd crop came up voluntary and then the farmer decided not harvest it. Even if this was the case, I am not sure if this would be illegal, but the 1st scenario, I am almost 100% positive, it is defiantly not baiting.
Happy Hunting

[Tete Dur]

Here is the reply I got from USFWS. They are the major authority so I take there word as the final say so.....

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding our laws and regulations pertaining to legal hunting methods for migratory game birds. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's mission is, working with others, to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.

[SIZE=3]You can hunt over the second growth, but you cannot manipulate the rice which would scatter seed. If the production of potholes in the voluntary rice causes a spreading of seed, that would be considered a baited area and you would not be able to hunt over it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Thank you for your cooperation in complying with our regulations that help protect fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats. Please feel free to respond to this message with any further inquiries that you may have regarding this matter. [/SIZE]"

Maybe many people have been doing this wrong over the years. I get from the USFWS response that if the holes are made prior to having any seed form on the "voluntary" rice then it is leagal. But even the seed head cannot be manipulated on the "voluntary" rice.

If you were to let that voluntary rice be and then next year that field was not planted with rice but rice came up anyway from the seed from the Previous year then you can manipulate it as you want. This is the same as planting millet....you cannot manipulate it once it seeds out but if you don't plant it the next year and it comes up voluntary it is legal. The seeds/plants have to go through an entire year/growing season for it to be voluntary. From what USFWS is saying they are viewing a second crop in the same year as the SAME growing season. Therefore, manipulation of seedout out voluntary rice at that point is baiting.

[Dink]

Plant marijuana near the entrance of the neighbors property......they'll never find your fields......

[rdenison]

MANIPULATION means the alteration of natural vegetation or agricultural crops by activities that include but are not limited to mowing, shredding, discing, rolling, chopping, trampling, flattening, burning or herbicide treatments. The term manipulation does not include the distributing or scattering of grain, seed, or other feed after removal from or storage on the field where grown. http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d..._2011-2012.pdf

I take the last sentence, as if you cut your 1st crop, disk pot holes, flood, you would be able to hunt. I guess the safest bet would be immediately after cutting 1st crop, go disk the pot poles, let the voluntary 2nd crop come up around the pot holes and do not disturb the area you did not disk after the 1st harvest and you would be 100% legal.

Anyway, on another note, we have been checked in the blinds described above in the past and was never ticketed for bating, just over the limit a couple of times for not "accurately counting". Maybe this is a grey area that they really don't enforce because IMO, it would be pretty hard to prove when you plowed your pot holes, before the 2nd crop voluntary back or after.
I take the last sentence, as if you cut your 1st crop, disk pot holes, flood, you would be able to hunt. I guess the safest bet would be immediatly after cutting 1st crop, go disk the pot poles, let the vouluntary 2nd crop come up around the pot holes and do not disturb the area you did not disk after the 1st harvest and you would be 100% legal. Anyway, on another note, we have been checked in blinds described above in the past and was never ticketed for bating, just over the limit a couple of times for not "accurtaly counting". Maybe the this is a grey area that really don't inforce because IMO, it would be pretty hard to prove when you plowed you pot holes.

[rdenison]

Corrected: MANIPULATION means the alteration of natural vegetation or agricultural crops by activities that include but are not limited to mowing, shredding, discing, rolling, chopping, trampling, flattening, burning or herbicide treatments. The term manipulation does not include the distributing or scattering of grain, seed, or other feed after removal from or storage on the field where grown. http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/d..._2011-2012.pdf

I take the last sentence, as if you cut your 1st crop, disk pot holes, flood, you would be able to hunt. I guess the safest bet would be immediately after cutting 1st crop, go disk the pot poles, let the voluntary 2nd crop come up around the pot holes and do not disturb the area you did not disk after the 1st harvest and you would be 100% legal.

Anyway, on another note, we have been checked in the blinds described above in the past and was never ticketed for baiting, just over the limit a couple of times for not "accurately counting". Maybe this is a grey area that they really don't enforce because IMO, it would be pretty hard to prove when you plowed your pot holes, before the 2nd crop voluntary came back or after.