Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by Clampy

Active THC is out of blood in 7-8 hrs. Stays in fat cells longer but it is metabolized and metabolites are not psychoactive.

This really is easy.

Thanks for looking that up Clampy, Here is a link to a scientific description of THC which shows that the it's actual effects in the blood continue for at most 3 hours. I would imagine that all traces of it would be gone by the 7-8 hour period that you refer to.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Te...403100443-full

[Clampy]

This is why Washington state enacted a 5 ng/mL per say DUID law. If you are suspected of being stoned behind the wheel you are subject to a blood test. 5 ng/mL is considered too stoned to drive.

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

" Although the addictive potential of cannabis is often compared with the addictive potential of alcohol and tobacco, the author concludes that the characteristics of cannabis tolerance are similar to those of opiate dependence." -The addictive potential of cannabis.

[AceArcher]

It's interesting to note the following statement on that same site under withdrawal

Withdrawal.
THC does not produce a severe withdrawal syndrome. Heavy users, however, frequently report insomnia, nervousness, mild stomach upset, and achy muscles—particularly if they stop their use suddenly.

I don't drink coffee but my wife does, and I would say she is a lot more irritated than any of the above is she doesn't get her coffee every morning.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Does the science that we have gone over and you have objectively agreed to mean nothing to you?

I have posted the sound science showing that cannabis increases the incidence of risky sexual behavior, including sex with multiple partners and sex without condoms. Here's more:

Multiple studies suggest an association of marijuana use with increased rates of sexual risk behavior and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). - Associations of marijuana use and sex-related marijuana expectancies with HIV/STD risk behavior in high-risk adolescents

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

" Although the addictive potential of cannabis is often compared with the addictive potential of alcohol and tobacco, the author concludes that the characteristics of cannabis tolerance are similar to those of opiate dependence." -The addictive potential of cannabis.

Are we only cherry picking particular statements in biased studies for materiel now?

well in that case here is my contribution; Oh but mine is from a non biased source.

Research has shown the overall addiction potential for cannabis to be less than for caffeine,[19] tobacco, alcohol, cocaine or heroin, but slightly higher than that for psilocybin, mescaline, LSD.[44] In a survey conducted by NIDA in 1994, epidemiologist James Anthony found that of those who tried marijuana at least once, about 9 percent eventually became addicted. While this is not negligible, it was still lower than other drugs which were evaluated. The corresponding figure for alcohol was 15 percent; for cocaine, 17 percent; for heroin, 23 percent; and for nicotine, 32 percent.[45]


9 percent vs.... 15,17,23, and 32 percent? Oh and that's only if we refer take the very very loose definition of saying that dependancy and addiction are basically the same thing.

[MathGeek]

This Is Your Brain On Drugs (Original) - YouTube

This Is Your Brain On Drugs (Original) - YouTube

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...brain-on-drugs

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

This Is Your Brain On Drugs (Original) - YouTube

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...brain-on-drugs

Are we discussing actual facts on cannabis use & whether it should be legalized, Or is this actually a discussion about Mescaline and LSD?
Which is what the study you linked to discusses.

I mean because obviously frying an egg in a pan and naming the egg "your brain" is a logical and scientific method.

So again, are we having a conversation based on logic & science. Or is it to be Emotion and Extremism?

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I have posted the sound science showing that cannabis increases the incidence of risky sexual behavior, including sex with multiple partners and sex without condoms. Here's more:

Multiple studies suggest an association of marijuana use with increased rates of sexual risk behavior and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). - Associations of marijuana use and sex-related marijuana expectancies with HIV/STD risk behavior in high-risk adolescents

Documented study from a non biased source, indicating that even among homeless and runaway youth who were substance abusers. No correlation was found that they would not use condom's and thereby prevent HIV infections.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...54139X98000330

Additionally NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON in this discussion has indicated that they support governmental sales of weed to underage children. A couple people have attempted to make that accusation toward me, but I have clarified that my position is as follows;

Legalization and governmental regulations and controls would undercut the current money base of drug cartels and organized drug crime. I believe that it's very likely that not enough money will remain in underage drug dealing to make it a profitable venture for dealers. If we were to dedicate a small percentage of the police & enforcement cost of the "war on drugs" to putting pressure on dealers who would try to create an underage market. We could quite possibly make it a very unprofitable business.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Are we discussing actual facts on cannabis use & whether it should be legalized, Or is this actually a discussion about Mescaline and LSD?
Which is what the study you linked to discusses.

I mean because obviously frying an egg in a pan and naming the egg "your brain" is a logical and scientific method.

So again, are we having a conversation based on logic & science. Or is it to be Emotion and Extremism?

The original post was intended to discuss the Libertarian position, which includes legalizing all drugs, not only marijuana as the gateway drug to broader legalization. In this thread, contributors explicitly have advocated legalizing not only cannabis, but also mushrooms and other soft drugs. Advocates have held out Portugal, which has legalized every imaginable model, as a positive example. Many contributors have specifically lauded the libertarian position, which is much broader than cannabis alone.

There is plenty of good science to show that cannabis and many other drugs have a negative impact on brain function. To be sure, the commercial, "This is your brain on drugs" is a bit oversimplified and was targeted at an adolescent audience. But the message has solid scientific support. See:

Cannabinoids derived from herbal cannabis interact with endogenous cannabinoid systems in the body. Actions on specific brain receptors cause dose-related impairments of psychomotor performance with implications for car and train driving, aeroplane piloting and academic performance. - Pharmacology and effects of cannabis: a brief review

["W"]

Say nope to dope

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by MathGeek;619159

[I

Cannabinoids derived from herbal cannabis interact with endogenous cannabinoid systems in the body. Actions on specific brain receptors cause dose-related impairments of psychomotor performance with implications for car and train driving, aeroplane piloting and academic performance.[/I] - Pharmacology and effects of cannabis: a brief review

Yes that is the point. It is an intoxicant. .

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

The original post was intended to discuss the Libertarian position, which includes legalizing all drugs, not only marijuana as the gateway drug to broader legalization. In this thread, contributors explicitly have advocated legalizing not only cannabis, but also mushrooms and other soft drugs. Advocates have held out Portugal, which has legalized every imaginable model, as a positive example. Many contributors have specifically lauded the libertarian position, which is much broader than cannabis alone.

The original post was not about this it was about a different subject, You branched it into this post which is titled "Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization" However you have attempted to use said post for both non scientific conjecture and to forward your personal agenda / opinion.

With that said, it is stated by the Libertarian party that they believe that the best course of action with all drugs is legalization / de-criminalization. It is also the overwhelming opinion of the worlds scientific community that legalization / de-criminalization is the most effective method by far to combat drug use.

It is NOT the libertarian party's position to eliminate underage substance abuse laws..... And you know it.

As Governor Johnson often points out to concerned parents, "it will never be legal for a person to smoke marijuana, become impaired, and get behind the wheel of a car or otherwise do harm to others, and it will never be legal for kids to smoke marijuana."

It is in point of fact the Libertarian party's position (which i agree with) that legalization & regulation will have the greatest possible impact upon drug availability to underage children.

America has cut teen cigarette use in half, not by criminalizing possession and use, but through a combination of honest education and sensible regulation. That's what been shown to be effective.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

There is plenty of good science to show that cannabis and many other drugs have a negative impact on brain function. To be sure, the commercial, "This is your brain on drugs" is a bit oversimplified and was targeted at an adolescent audience. But the message has solid scientific support. See:

Cannabinoids derived from herbal cannabis interact with endogenous cannabinoid systems in the body. Actions on specific brain receptors cause dose-related impairments of psychomotor performance with implications for car and train driving, aeroplane piloting and academic performance. - Pharmacology and effects of cannabis: a brief review

You linking the commercial has nothing to do with the message being oversimplified, It's being done as a simple emotional plea to justify your unreasonable and unscientific stance on this discussion.

And just like clampy said, that's the point of using cannabis. So no need to debunk this study, because it effectively means nothing of relevance to this discussion.

[mr crab]

Dang....yall boys still on this one huh? Its getting deep up in here. Sounds to me like a.a.&mh need to go fishing, burn one, and squash it.

[AceArcher]

Whats really at question here is do you actually want your children to end up as drug user's of any type.

If you continue with the extraordinarily bad policies of criminalization that have been part and parcel of the "War on drugs" you are being part of what is making the drug culture more powerful in america each and every day. Every year that the real issues are ignored, drug cartel's earn an estimated 64 BILLION dollars in profit. Like any other successful business they return a large portion of their profits to improving there business model.

The business model they are trying to achieve is to have every single person as an addict under their thumb. By continuing to play into their hands, we are just making that more of a reality every single day.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

It is also the overwhelming opinion of the worlds scientific community that legalization / de-criminalization is the most effective method by far to combat drug use.

America has cut teen cigarette use in half, not by criminalizing possession and use, but through a combination of honest education and sensible regulation. That's what been shown to be effective.

The most effective efforts to date to reduce drug use by adolescents in the United States was a combination of Reagan's "Just Say No!" campaign with diligent enforcement of existing laws:

High school seniors using cannabis dropped from 50.1% in 1978 to 36% in 1987, to 12% in 1991 and the percentage of students using other drugs decreased similarly. Psychedelic drug use dropped from 11% to 6%, cocaine from 12% to 10%, and heroin from 1% to 0.5%.

If scientists in other countries want to legalize drugs, let them do it in their own countries, and we'll see over decades if these countries prosper and grow or decline. Likewise, let's keep an eye on Colorado and California before we rush into the abyss.

[Clampy]

They couldnt do that. Everyone knows. After 1 hit they would chase down a shrimp boat and try and score some meth.

[Clampy]

This thread won't die until 420 comments.

[mr crab]

Originally Posted by Clampy

They couldnt do that. Everyone knows. After 1 hit they would chase down a shrimp boat and try and score some meth.

they'd be laying the 8 on every pilgrim on the lake.

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by mr crab

they'd be laying the 8 on every pilgrim on the lake.

Ha ha.