Dr. Dobson reveals Liberty under attack

[MathGeek]

http://drjamesdobson.org/about/comme...iberty-for-all

In my experience, what Dr. Dobson is saying here is true.

[Montauk17]

The opening paragraph says alot....serious times we are living in I hate to see what will happen between now and election time. I hope and pray we can turn things around,the way things are these days is a path for destruction. From what I understand they don't allow the pledge of allegiance and god in alot of public schools anymore. Makes me sick,and they openly support homosexuals at schools...some go overboard and almost encourage it. Like mentioned in the article most adults won't be swayed into thinking these evil ways but the young generation is at a high risk.

[Montauk17]

I'm sure most realize this but some don't. Obama is not the problem,big government as a whole is. This was a slow buildup to an evil scheme that started years ago way before obama got into office. Untill we start over from scratch I don't think it will get any better. Presidents these days are nothing more than a damn puppet.

Charlie Daniels - Payback Time - YouTube

Charlie Daniels - Payback Time - YouTube

[Montauk17]

Charlie Daniels - 'Speaking Freely' - YouTube

Charlie Daniels - 'Speaking Freely' - YouTube

[Matt G]

Originally Posted by Montauk17

I'm sure most realize this but some don't. Obama is not the problem,big government as a whole is. This was a slow buildup to an evil scheme that started years ago way before obama got into office. Untill we start over from scratch I don't think it will get any better. Presidents these days are nothing more than a damn puppet.

Now that is a statement I can agree on.

Obama isn't out to destroy America like everyone says. He is just completely misguided in his endevors. Americans are the ones that are destroying America. Over the years, people began to put too much faith in the government and are now dependent on them to merely survive. If it were going to be fixed, it should have happend years ago.......... I'm afraid that it is too late to turn this country back around to the right direction. And by right I don't necessarily mean "to the right." A little give in take is needed from both sides to make it work. I just wish the left would quit taking and the right would quit giving.

There is no magic politican that will get in DC and change things. It needs to fail and start back with what our founding fathers had intended on this nation being.

[Montauk17]

Originally Posted by Matt G

Now that is a statement I can agree on.

Obama isn't out to destroy America like everyone says. He is just completely misguided in his endevors. Americans are the ones that are destroying America. Over the years, people began to put too much faith in the government and are now dependent on them to merely survive. If it were going to be fixed, it should have happend years ago.......... I'm afraid that it is too late to turn this country back around to the right direction. And by right I don't necessarily mean "to the right." A little give in take is needed from both sides to make it work. I just wish the left would quit taking and the right would quit giving.

There is no magic politican that will get in DC and change things. It needs to fail and start back with what our founding fathers had intended on this nation being.

You are correct,100 percent! Also it is not a left or right issue,they all do the same crap. I don't vote for either one,libertarian is the only one that will get my vote. IMO the voting system if flawed too so it doesn't do much good. I think Ron Paul would have done us alot of good if he was given the opportunity.

[Wag]

and the last paragraph ruined it ....... "If you agree with this objective and can assist us financially here at the end of a very lean summer, we would certainly appreciate your support" ...

[Montauk17]

Originally Posted by Wag

and the last paragraph ruined it ....... "If you agree with this objective and can assist us financially here at the end of a very lean summer, we would certainly appreciate your support" ...

Yeah I hear ya but all websites do it....hard to get the word out without money.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by Montauk17

Yeah I hear ya but all websites do it....hard to get the word out without money.

and that's the problem.... it's all about the money

[mriguy]

Rand Paul 2016

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Montauk17

You are correct,100 percent! Also it is not a left or right issue,they all do the same crap. I don't vote for either one,libertarian is the only one that will get my vote. IMO the voting system if flawed too so it doesn't do much good. I think Ron Paul would have done us alot of good if he was given the opportunity.

I hope to stimulate a discussion regarding what more we can do at different levels in hopes of making a difference. Clearly, governmental intrusion is impacting liberty in the workplace, the school, the military, hunting and fishing, church, law enforcement, etc. How many churches are less inclined to speak directly and boldly about sexual immorality for fear of legal repercussions or change of tax exempt status? How many schools are teaching the PC baloney?

Here's what I'm doing (a drop in the bucket to be sure, but every bit helps):

Home schooling my children both to deliver higher quality in the core subjects (science, math, language arts, and social studies), as well as to prevent the socialist brainwashing that now dominates the public schools. You better believe our history includes the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the abuses of power that gave rise to the American Revolution, and the contributions of the Judeo-Christian faith to both western civilization and the prosperity of the United States.

Supporting Christian ministries which still preach traditional Biblical family values. I try and notice when ministries intentionally avoid topics like adultery, teenage pregnancy and immorality, homosexuality, occult practices, and when they give overt approval to false religion and secular humanism. I try and notice when there is an overemphasis on reaching out to the lost through social programs without ever giving anyone the vaguest idea that sin might be a problem creating separation from God and needing the blood of Jesus to address the problem.

Encouraging and supporting grassroots efforts to limit growth of governmental power, especially when it is likely to intrude on matters of faith, education, and faith-based family values.

[2ndamendment]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I hope to stimulate a discussion regarding what more we can do at different levels in hopes of making a difference. Clearly, governmental intrusion is impacting liberty in the workplace, the school, the military, hunting and fishing, church, law enforcement, etc. How many churches are less inclined to speak directly and boldly about sexual immorality for fear of legal repercussions or change of tax exempt status? How many schools are teaching the PC baloney?

Here's what I'm doing (a drop in the bucket to be sure, but every bit helps):

Home schooling my children both to deliver higher quality in the core subjects (science, math, language arts, and social studies), as well as to prevent the socialist brainwashing that now dominates the public schools. You better believe our history includes the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the abuses of power that gave rise to the American Revolution, and the contributions of the Judeo-Christian faith to both western civilization and the prosperity of the United States.

Supporting Christian ministries which still preach traditional Biblical family values. I try and notice when ministries intentionally avoid topics like adultery, teenage pregnancy and immorality, homosexuality, occult practices, and when they give overt approval to false religion and secular humanism. I try and notice when there is an overemphasis on reaching out to the lost through social programs without ever giving anyone the vaguest idea that sin might be a problem creating separation from God and needing the blood of Jesus to address the problem.

Encouraging and supporting grassroots efforts to limit growth of governmental power, especially when it is likely to intrude on matters of faith, education, and faith-based family values.

AMEN mathgeek xxxxx10000000000000

[Montauk17]

Originally Posted by Wag

and that's the problem.... it's all about the money

That is the way of the world bro always has always will.

[Montauk17]

Originally Posted by 2ndamendment

AMEN mathgeek xxxxx10000000000000

No doubt there..

[MathGeek]

I know many parents may not have the time, inclination, or resources to home school, and that's ok. One thing we like to do is to email links to thoughtful and well-informed articles (like this one) to our children a couple times each month to promote healthy conversations around the dinner table and while driving to practices and fishing and such. One of the big advantages to hunting and fishing with your children is you can spend time talking about what is happening at school and in the world around us.

My daughter has already posted the link to her facebook page and is pushing her own grassroots discussion about these things!

[AceArcher]

I certainly feel that it is everyone's right to believe in what they wish to believe.

But the problems this country are facing are not due to the country as a whole moving away from Christianity.

The problems we face are because this countries governmental parties have become masters in the study and application of social manipulation.

What we have failed to do in our education system is to teach people how to think. Our education system remains embedded in the old world Prussian method of Memorize, Memorize, and then Memorize some more. Pass your exams and then forget 90% of what you have learned.

I respect Mathgeeks choice in teaching strong christian skills in his children, However i believe that it is his teaching of critical thinking skills that will help them more than anything else.

I think perhaps Ghandi had it right when he stated "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

In my opinion his statement reflects the fact that we choose as people to change the "word" of christ to suit our particular needs of the moment. More blood has been spilled on this planet in the name of religion than anything else. Religions have the annoying habit of making their devotees believe that they are the only ones who know whats best.



So in my opinion to solve this country's problems you must leave religion at the doorstep. You have to recognize a few things.

#1 Tolerance and understanding of your fellow man (If he chooses to live with different beliefs than you, whether you agree with them or not, he should receive an equal level of courtesy and respect as you)

#2 Education is of utmost importance (not just book learning, but learning how to critically think, learning how to do mundane everyday things) Those are of utmost importance. We have fallen from having an education system which produced some of this planet's smartest. To a nation where teachers are underpaid, overworked, and ridiculed. We are currently ranked as #17 in the list of developed nations for our education system. Here is a short blurb from the #1 and #2 ranked education systems on how to improve education.


There are no magic bullets: The small number of correlations found in the study shows the poverty of simplistic solutions. Throwing money at education by itself rarely produces results, and individual changes to education systems, however sensible, rarely do much on their own.

Education requires long-term, coherent and focused system-wide attention to achieve improvement.

Respect teachers: Good teachers are essential to high-quality education. Finding and retaining them is not necessarily a question of high pay. Instead, teachers need to be treated as the valuable professionals they are, not as technicians in a huge, educational machine.

Culture can be changed: The cultural assumptions and values surrounding an education system do more to support or undermine it than the system can do on its own. Using the positive elements of this culture and, where necessary, seeking to change the negative ones, are important to promoting successful outcomes.

Parents are neither impediments to nor saviours of education: Parents want their children to have a good education; pressure from them for change should not be seen as a sign of hostility but as an indication of something possibly amiss in provision. On the other hand, parental input and choice do not constitute a panacea. Education systems should strive to keep parents informed and work with them.

Educate for the future, not just the present: Many of today's job titles, and the skills needed to fill them, simply did not exist 20 years ago. Education systems need to consider what skills today's students will need in future and teach accordingly.

Bear in mind that in both of these countries Teachers who excel at their job are treated as almost celebrities with the pay and respect that those earn.

#3 Teaching our children Self Reliance, How to grow things, hunt / fish for food, good work skills to earn income.... etc.

#4 Stop allowing politics and special interests to divide us. It's not an accident that different racial groups of people tend to lean far in one political direction or another. It is intentional political manipulation. We are all here for the same things, to live, love & prosper.

#5 Our government is no longer a Constitutional Federal Republic. Its has instead changed itself into a Corporatocracy, that is hidden behind a relatively nice sounding stated agenda of becoming a Social Democracy. As such all decision have become one's of what is in the best interests of the Mega Corporations with the political lobbying war-chests. In every political action, simply follow the money and you see who is pulling the strings.

#4 I believe there are groups of people who would change this if they came into power. (I am a registered libertarian, and do believe if this party gained meaningful power they would be able to enact some real changes that would help us)

But, in a first to post election (which is what we have) It is basically a statistical certainty that anything other than a 2 party system is impossible. If any group ever begins to push a majority electoral system we all need to rally to that cause.

As such history and reality show us that, Things in america will probably not get better until they get much, much worse. Typically free thinking democratic societies change over time and end up as facist / communist / oppressive societies... Then revolutions occur and the cycle begins again.

Therefore anarchist's might just have it right..... The only way that change is ever going to happen is for things to get so bad that people are readily willing to die to change it.


Hopefully they are wrong and we can stop this freight train. We might just be able to do it, if we can come together as people, respect our fellow man (and woman, regardless of their beliefs as long as those beliefs don't actually harm us) and work to a common cause of all of our betterment, and not just the "betterment" of those with all the money.

True Constitutional Social Democracies are what we all need to work towards, There are many examples of them in the world that have shown us exactly how to do it.

It's going to be a long hard road to get there, or anywhere better than where we are headed right now.


Sorry bout the massive wall of text. I will now go post a fishing report or something.

[AceArcher]

TLDR version located basically here... whether you believe in god or not.

Dan Le Sac vs. Scroobius Pip - Letter from God - YouTube

Dan Le Sac vs. Scroobius Pip - Letter from God - YouTube

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by AceArcher

What we have failed to do in our education system is to teach people how to think. Our education system remains embedded in the old world Prussian method of Memorize, Memorize, and then Memorize some more. Pass your exams and then forget 90% of what you have learned.

Actually, it's much worse than that. Not even much memorization is happening any more. Even things like spelling, multiplication tables, state capitals, and the periodic table that were traditionally memorized are things greatly lacking in most high school graduates. Critical thinking skills are built on some minimal knowledge base. Not even a minimal knowledge base is in place any more, but they do teach pretty good fakery for whatever assessments are used.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

So in my opinion to solve this country's problems you must leave religion at the doorstep. You have to recognize a few things.

Each American should feel at complete liberty to bring his faith into the public sphere and political discourse to whatever degree he feels appropriate. Others should not insist matters of faith be left at the doorstep (excluded from public discourse).

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#1 Tolerance and understanding of your fellow man (If he chooses to live with different beliefs than you, whether you agree with them or not, he should receive an equal level of courtesy and respect as you)

I would go further. One should never endeavor to manipulate governmental powers to suppress the beliefs, expressions, and faith-based practices of your fellow man.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#2 Education is of utmost importance (not just book learning, but learning how to critically think, learning how to do mundane everyday things) Those are of utmost importance.

I'd rate character above education. I'd rather produce men and women of the character of those who arrived on the Mayflower rather than the education and character of the average Microsoft employee or silicon valley engineer.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Education requires long-term, coherent and focused system-wide attention to achieve improvement.

Respect teachers: Good teachers are essential to high-quality education. Finding and retaining them is not necessarily a question of high pay. Instead, teachers need to be treated as the valuable professionals they are, not as technicians in a huge, educational machine.

My wife and I have been educational professionals for a long time, and it's a challenge for even us to identify where the teaching profession went wrong in America. It has something to do with the same entitlement mentality and big government foolishness that plagues most of government. You're close to the core problem when you can see how teachers think they should receive the same kudos as public servants that it makes sense to offer soldiers returning home from war.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Parents are neither impediments to nor saviours of education: Parents want their children to have a good education; pressure from them for change should not be seen as a sign of hostility but as an indication of something possibly amiss in provision. On the other hand, parental input and choice do not constitute a panacea. Education systems should strive to keep parents informed and work with them.

Most parents cannot distinguish between the knowledge and skills true education represents, and the diploma and other ways of documenting the knowledge and skills. When push comes to shove, many parents will push for the documentation rather than the actual knowledge.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

Educate for the future, not just the present: Many of today's job titles, and the skills needed to fill them, simply did not exist 20 years ago. Education systems need to consider what skills today's students will need in future and teach accordingly.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Good education creates a fit mind, just as a good workout program creates a fit body. A person with a fit body can quickly learn to excel at sports he has not specifically trained for over many years. Likewise, a fit mind can adapt and acquire new skills and master new disciplines. A strong, disciplined, well trained mind can be produced without tailoring the program to guesses about future job markets.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#3 Teaching our children Self Reliance, How to grow things, hunt / fish for food, good work skills to earn income.... etc.

To me, these are more parental responsibilities that should be supported and encouraged by the educational system. Marksmanship and archery skills can be added to PE, but on the whole, I'd rather public education focus on reading, writing, history, science, and math.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#4 Stop allowing politics and special interests to divide us. It's not an accident that different racial groups of people tend to lean far in one political direction or another. It is intentional political manipulation. We are all here for the same things, to live, love & prosper.

It depends on where the divisions actually occur. The liberty to choose your friends and associates according to one's personal preferences is fundamental. The personal preferences need not be rational.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#5 Our government is no longer a Constitutional Federal Republic. Its has instead changed itself into a Corporatocracy, that is hidden behind a relatively nice sounding stated agenda of becoming a Social Democracy. As such all decision have become one's of what is in the best interests of the Mega Corporations with the political lobbying war-chests. In every political action, simply follow the money and you see who is pulling the strings.

This is oversimplified and fails to explain many aspects of the social agendas that are actually bad for business: radical environmentalism, gay marriage, anti-RKBA agendas, etc.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

#4 I believe there are groups of people who would change this if they came into power. (I am a registered libertarian, and do believe if this party gained meaningful power they would be able to enact some real changes that would help us)

Too bad they want to legalize drugs.

Originally Posted by AceArcher

But, in a first to post election (which is what we have) It is basically a statistical certainty that anything other than a 2 party system is impossible. If any group ever begins to push a majority electoral system we all need to rally to that cause.

The solution is not primarily political. As Paul Harvey said, (paraphrasing) "Self-government is not possible without self-discipline."

Originally Posted by AceArcher

As such history and reality show us that, Things in america will probably not get better until they get much, much worse. Typically free thinking democratic societies change over time and end up as facist / communist / oppressive societies... Then revolutions occur and the cycle begins again.

Therefore anarchist's might just have it right..... The only way that change is ever going to happen is for things to get so bad that people are readily willing to die to change it.

Sad, but I think you are probably right. But a more pneumatikos view would be to realize that this fulfills the Biblical expectation that a society will reap what it has sown. After a period of reaping and weeping, repentance and restoration becomes possible.

[RickLafayette]

WHAT AN IMPRESSIVE LIST OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS!…
First President to apply for college aid as a foreign student, then deny he was a foreigner.
First President to have a social security number from a state he has never lived in.
First President to preside over a cut to the credit-rating of the United States.
First President to violate the War Powers Act.
First President to be held in contempt of court for illegally obstructing oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
First President to defy a Federal Judge’s court order to cease implementing the Health Care Reform Law.
First President to require all Americans to purchase a product from a third party, a violation of the U.S. Constitution.
First President to spend a trillion dollars on ‘shovel-ready’ jobs when there was no such thing as ‘shovel-ready’ jobs.
First President to recommend changing our National Anthem as it portrays and promotes violence and is warlike in its theme.
First President to cancel the National Day of Prayer Breakfast and activities.
First President to initiate a Cash for Clunkers Program to clean up exhaust that adds to global warming, then extended it because it was so popular — wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars.
First President to abrogate bankruptcy law to turn over control of companies to his union supporters.
First President to bypass Congress and implement the Dream Act through executive fiat.
First President to order a secret amnesty program that stopped the deportation of illegal immigrants across the U.S., including those with criminal convictions.
First President to demand a company hand over $20 billion to one of his political appointees.
First President to terminate America’s ability to put a man in space.
First President to have a law signed by an auto-pen without being present.
First President to arbitrarily declare an existing law unconstitutional and refuse to enforce it.
First President to threaten insurance companies if they publicly spoke out on the reasons for their rate increases.
First President to tell a major manufacturing company which state they are allowed to locate a factory in.
First President to file lawsuits against the states he swore an oath to protect (AZ, WI, OH, IN).
First President to withdraw an existing coal permit that had been properly issued years ago.
First President to fire an inspector general of Americorps for catching one of his friends in a corruption case.
First President to appoint 45 czars to replace elected officials in his office.
First President to golf 73 separate times in his first two and a half years in office, 90 to date.
First President to pledge complete transparency while campaigning, then hide his medical, educational,and travel records.
First President to win a Nobel Peace Prize for doing NOTHING to earn it.
First President to go on multiple global ‘apology tours’.
First President to go on 17 lavish vacations, including date nights and Wednesday evening White House parties for his friends; paid for by the taxpayer.
First President to have 22 personal servants (taxpayer funded) for his wife.
First President to keep a dog trainer on retainer for $102,000 a year at taxpayer expense.
First President to repeat the Holy Qur’an and tells us that the early morning Islamic call to worship is the most beautiful sound on earth.

[AceArcher]

How the heck do you multi-quote... I tried the button at the bottom, can not get it to work.

In any case.....

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Actually, it's much worse than that. Not even much memorization is happening any more. Even things like spelling, multiplication tables, state capitals, and the periodic table that were traditionally memorized are things greatly lacking in most high school graduates. Critical thinking skills are built on some minimal knowledge base. Not even a minimal knowledge base is in place any more, but they do teach pretty good fakery for whatever assessments are used.

It has been a little while since i have been directly involved in any sort of educational system, but if that is truly the state of affairs, then i think that perhaps nothing short of divine intervention is going to help us!

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Each American should feel at complete liberty to bring his faith into the public sphere and political discourse to whatever degree he feels appropriate. Others should not insist matters of faith be left at the doorstep (excluded from public discourse).

Absolutely, just so long as this is not perverted into "Each American who is christian, straight, and has no dubious tendencies"

And you have hit the nail squarely on the head in knowing that I mean that Faith should be left at the doorstep for a discussion like this (public discourse)

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I would go further. One should never endeavor to manipulate governmental powers to suppress the beliefs, expressions, and faith-based practices of your fellow man.



I'd rate character above education. I'd rather produce men and women of the character of those who arrived on the Mayflower rather than the education and character of the average Microsoft employee or silicon valley engineer.



My wife and I have been educational professionals for a long time, and it's a challenge for even us to identify where the teaching profession went wrong in America. It has something to do with the same entitlement mentality and big government foolishness that plagues most of government. You're close to the core problem when you can see how teachers think they should receive the same kudos as public servants that it makes sense to offer soldiers returning home from war.

Agreed on most of the above. What i was referring to as education in all things (books, critical thinking, ability and desire to do mundane things) could perhaps have been said better with the word character. well said.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Most parents cannot distinguish between the knowledge and skills true education represents, and the diploma and other ways of documenting the knowledge and skills. When push comes to shove, many parents will push for the documentation rather than the actual knowledge.

True, It's a bit hard to get away from this for the average working American. Our society dictates that in almost all cases there should be familys where both adults work full time, A return to a 1 person working family with a parent at home to support and help educate the children would certainly be very helpful

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Good education creates a fit mind, just as a good workout program creates a fit body. A person with a fit body can quickly learn to excel at sports he has not specifically trained for over many years. Likewise, a fit mind can adapt and acquire new skills and master new disciplines. A strong, disciplined, well trained mind can be produced without tailoring the program to guesses about future job markets.

as stated this was a blurb that i quoted from another on how the education systems of the top two rated countries have achieved those statuses.

they certainly didn't just stat pad the equivilancy test's like we do here, and one could also make the argument that teaching for the future can develop the same "fit mind" that teaching for today does. As your the professional in this department i shall bow to your better judgement.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

To me, these are more parental responsibilities that should be supported and encouraged by the educational system. Marksmanship and archery skills can be added to PE, but on the whole, I'd rather public education focus on reading, writing, history, science, and math.

Agreed, did not mean to infer, that that any of the education parts rest solely on educators and / or parents.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

It depends on where the divisions actually occur. The liberty to choose your friends and associates according to one's personal preferences is fundamental. The personal preferences need not be rational.

I believe this might be the area where we might start to really disagree, Everyone certainly has the right to choose their friends and associates. We wouldn't be human if we didn't.

What i'm referencing, and i think what you would agree with if you thought it over, Is that we need to re-develop our critical thinking skills to get past the messages in the public which say "Hate and distrust everything that is unfamiliar to you"

You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to easily see that the way our government achieves its goal is by dividing and controlling groups of individuals by playing to things that are important to that group. It has created a "Football" Team mentality in the american voter, Either your playing for the red's or the blue's. If your on one team the other is the embodiment of evil.

The truth is that there are shades of EVERYTHING.....

Originally Posted by MathGeek

This is oversimplified and fails to explain many aspects of the social agendas that are actually bad for business: radical environmentalism, gay marriage, anti-RKBA agendas, etc.

Respectfully, no more oversimplified than thinking that a return to a strictly christian values country is gonna fix everything. I mean lets be honest here, the social agenda's being carried out here in the states, are pretty darn tame compared to some of the social agendas the US attempts to carry out overseas. (think drone strikes with constant civilian collateral deaths etc)

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Too bad they want to legalize drugs.

I can't decide if your saying this in the form of "its a shame they do because if they didn't have this stance they might get elected" or if you say it from the stance that you could not support them since they do favor it.

Either way my opinion falls perfectly in line with theirs.. I will go so far as to say Thank goodness the do want to legalize. Understand something, I am a non user.. (well there was that one time in college sneaking out with a girl who enjoyed an occasional smoke) but i digress....

The war on drugs has done nothing but make hundreds of drug king billionaires, incite what amounts to basically open warfare south of our border, and provide fuel to hasten the stripping of own our citizens rights.

IMO its the proverbial 900lb gorilla in the room.... everyone knows that they are gonna have to recognize it sooner or later.... but no one wants to be the first to do so. Drugs will be legalized in our lifetime, there is simply to much science showing that it MUST be done.

Sadly, there is so much $$$$$$ wrapped up in continuing the "WAR" that it means millions more people are going to pay unnecessary penalties, fines, and prison terms before the nonsense will end. You simply cannot regulate what someone is going to do with there own body. You would think that we would have learned that lesson from prohibition.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

The solution is not primarily political. As Paul Harvey said, (paraphrasing) "Self-government is not possible without self-discipline."

not a follower of him, but this has the makings of a good sound bite.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Sad, but I think you are probably right. But a more pneumatikos view would be to realize that this fulfills the Biblical expectation that a society will reap what it has sown. After a period of reaping and weeping, repentance and restoration becomes possible.

Then again perhaps its just the law of entropy at work (said with proverbial tongue in cheek)